[RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
Kent Osterberg
kent at coveoregon.com
Fri Aug 24 19:39:31 PDT 2012
Jesse,
Sometimes the best thing you can do for a customer is document, in
writing, what's wrong. And walk away if they aren't willing to fix it.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
On 8/24/2012 6:36 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote:
> Im with you on the wisdom of it.
>
> The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid tie, but
> there are very few people that understand the off-grid applications
> (DT is the only person I think is worth listening to.) The contractor
> they chose was the only contractor the home owners spoke to that
> lacked any type of certification, not that that means anything. The
> homeowner told them what they wanted to do and the contractor said
> okay. Even though it was a poor idea. I was shown email
> conversations between the two. Of course there is always two sides to
> these stories...
>
> The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge two
> battery banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters. Both
> inverters were also tied to the homes panelboard to help charge the
> bank in-case of low wind. The two Outbacks fed a 100A panelboard that
> had a few loads from the home wired to it (well pump, furnace, sump,
> various receptacles) The panel also has a bypass switch that allows
> it to bypass the inverters all together and use straight grid power to
> run the loads.
>
> The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers,
> the contractor supplied the inverters and electrical BOS and the 16 MK
> 12V batteries. Another contractor came up to program the setpoints.
>
> I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I keep finding
> them up here, its getting a little old.
>
> I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80 feet or to
> scrap both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the want to hire me,
> what I say goes and if I say it all comes out to start over, that's
> what happens.
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, <toddcory at finestplanet.com
> <mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com>> wrote:
>
> i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie
> inverters in this application. it is pretty easy to modify the
> inverters (board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow
> the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid (internal
> transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an outage to back up.
> the only additional use the system would bring to their bill is
> re-floating the batteries occasionally.
>
> with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind
> gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house ups. i
> wonder what the intention or original design was supposed to do?
>
> todd
>
> On Friday, August 24, 2012 9:14am, "Jesse Dahl"
> <dahlsolar at gmail.com <mailto:dahlsolar at gmail.com>> said:
>
> I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have
> gathered is an absolute bust. Just doing a little online research
> it seems like they are getting next to nothing from the wind
> generators.
> From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I
> would say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then
> powering loads.
> This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN.
> Jesse
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg <kent at coveoregon.com
> <mailto:kent at coveoregon.com>> wrote:
>
> Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide
> energy for a household except possibly in the best
> circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting
> most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go
> up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the
> house. Batteries are energy losers!
>
> What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is
> also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and
> the default for most of them is to record energy going in
> either direction as energy consumed. Since they are
> programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy
> - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one
> direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both
> incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two
> register meter.
>
> Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> www.bluemountainsolar.com <http://www.bluemountainsolar.com>
> On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote:
>
> The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they
> have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is
> the issue.
> They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is
> 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the
> ground... No wind would be an understatement.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz
> <dkatz at aeesolar.com <mailto:dkatz at aeesolar.com>> wrote:
>
> Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some
> utility meters actually charge for power when you are
> selling.
> Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen
> tv that they leave on all the time.
> David Katz
>
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Jesse Dahl" <dahlsolar at gmail.com
> <mailto:dahlsolar at gmail.com>>
> To: "Wrenches" <RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging
> Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I got a call from a family today about a system they
> had installed recently and they think they have a
> problem. They claim their electric bill has just about
> doubled since the system has been installed due to
> outback using the grid to power the loads instead of
> the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows
> the system buying the exact amount as any load on the
> system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I
> would like to get any ideas on what could cause this
> before I drive all the way there.
>
> What I know about the system:
> 2 - outback inverters, 48v
> 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge
> controllers
> 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter)
>
> I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this
> before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive.
>
> Thanks eh!
>
> Jesse
>
> Sent from my iPad!!!
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
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