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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Jesse,<br>
<br>
Sometimes the best thing you can do for a customer is document, in
writing, what's wrong. And walk away if they aren't willing to fix
it.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.bluemountainsolar.com">www.bluemountainsolar.com</a>
On 8/24/2012 6:36 PM, Jesse Dahl wrote:
</pre>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJLdFVcbvfVLRu=BZ3PxjovXROYJV4LMJ0faC_dmFZ063h_-CQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Im with you on the wisdom of it.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid
tie, but there are very few people that understand the off-grid
applications (DT is the only person I think is worth listening
to.) The contractor they chose was the only contractor the home
owners spoke to that lacked any type of certification, not that
that means anything. The homeowner told them what they wanted
to do and the contractor said okay. Even though it was a poor
idea. I was shown email conversations between the two. Of
course there is always two sides to these stories...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge
two battery banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters.
Both inverters were also tied to the homes panelboard to help
charge the bank in-case of low wind. The two Outbacks fed a
100A panelboard that had a few loads from the home wired to it
(well pump, furnace, sump, various receptacles) The panel also
has a bypass switch that allows it to bypass the inverters all
together and use straight grid power to run the loads. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers,
the contractor supplied the inverters and electrical BOS and the
16 MK 12V batteries. Another contractor came up to program the
setpoints.</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I
keep finding them up here, its getting a little old. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80
feet or to scrap both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the
want to hire me, what I say goes and if I say it all comes out
to start over, that's what happens. <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com" target="_blank">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font face="arial" size="4">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0">i am not understanding the
'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in this
application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters
(board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow
the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid
(internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an
outage to back up. the only additional use the system
would bring to their bill is re-floating the batteries
occasionally.<br>
<br>
with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind
gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house
ups. i wonder what the intention or original design was
supposed to do?</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0">todd</p>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0">On Friday, August 24,
2012 9:14am, "Jesse Dahl" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dahlsolar@gmail.com" target="_blank">dahlsolar@gmail.com</a>>
said:<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>I do not want to take this on! The wind, from
what I have gathered is an absolute bust. Just
doing a little online research it seems like they
are getting next to nothing from the wind
generators.</div>
<div>From my little understanding of the system and
reading replies, I would say they are buying
power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads.</div>
<div>This system was installed by a contractor in
Duluth, MN.</div>
<div>Jesse <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com"
target="_blank">kent@coveoregon.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like
enough to provide energy for a household
except possibly in the best circumstances. If
there isn't much wind, the system is getting
most of it's energy from the grid. The utility
bill would go up even if they were using the
same amount of energy in the house. Batteries
are energy losers!<br>
<br>
What Dave and others have warned about kWh
metering issues is also true. The new digital
meters have many capabilities and the default
for most of them is to record energy going in
either direction as energy consumed. Since
they are programmable, the same meter can be
used to record net energy - behave like most
disk-type meters; ignore energy in one
direction - behave like a detented meter; or
record both incoming energy and outgoing
energy separately - a two register meter. <br>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0">Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bluemountainsolar.com"
target="_blank">www.bluemountainsolar.com</a>
On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>The system only uses grid power to charge
batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel
so I don't think the meter is the issue.</div>
<div>They did send me a picture of the two
wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground
and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind
would be an understatement.</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dkatz@aeesolar.com"
target="_blank">dkatz@aeesolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
Check to see if their meter goes
backwards. Some utility meters actually
charge for power when you are selling.<br>
Or maybe they have no wind and a new big
flat screen tv that they leave on all the
time.<br>
David Katz<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Jesse Dahl" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dahlsolar@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dahlsolar@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Wrenches" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid
charging<br>
Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10pt">
<div>Hello,<br>
<br>
I got a call from a family today about
a system they had installed recently
and they think they have a problem.
They claim their electric bill has
just about doubled since the system
has been installed due to outback
using the grid to power the loads
instead of the battery bank. They
claim the MATE always shows the system
buying the exact amount as any load on
the system draws. Due to the
distance from my shop, I would like to
get any ideas on what could cause this
before I drive all the way there. <br>
<br>
What I know about the system:<br>
2 - outback inverters, 48v <br>
2 - whisper 500 wind generators with
whisper charge controllers<br>
16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter)<br>
<br>
I guessing setting, but if anyone has
seen this before, I'd like to narrow
it down before the drive. <br>
<br>
Thanks eh!<br>
<br>
Jesse<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad!!!<br>
_______________________________________________</div>
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