[RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Joel Davidson
joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net
Sun Jan 30 11:42:32 PST 2011
Learn from insurance companies who have become experts at wording contracts that excluse pre-existing conditions.
See http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/pre-existing-condition/ and lots of other info on the WWW.
----- Original Message -----
From: R Ray Walters
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods
Keith;
I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property.
If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden in the wall?
Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, everything else is their problem.
I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....)
However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place.
Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will cause a short.
I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers.
Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire)
R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer
On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:
Folks.....
To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at our local convention center.
New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing.
Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even available.
If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary.
I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook other value added services which could benefit the customer.
Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)
1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients pool.
2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency.
3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client.
4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over to pull it out.
7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ on the utility bill.
8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month.
9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the code/cord situation.
10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel.
I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and offer something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about their experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!).
Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their current situation and a step by step way to get there, together.
Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler plate questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or at least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with people they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker, as they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on their contracts words.
If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer girl scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what they've heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can we deliver on their needs.
Keith
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From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilsolar at yahoo.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Hi Joel:
For many years, when Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell. I liked that partnership. Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a specialty anymore. Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even roofing contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.)
However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, are now entering the solar industry. So my partners are becoming my competitors. They have that right.
My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality installation. What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able to do best, but they skipped that step. That gives me some concern for the safety of PV system owners and their neighbors.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037
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From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
Andrew,
Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject.
Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work with others.
Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion of your work. So what's the hassle?
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: Solar Energy Solutions
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods
Joel,
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
Respectfully,
Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."
--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: Warren Lauzon
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods
We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit.
From: Nick Soleil
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods
Hi wrenches:
Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story.
I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary!
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037
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