[RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

Keith Cronin electrichi01 at yahoo.com
Sun Jan 30 11:04:29 PST 2011


Ray

Good points.

Clarification: I wasn't suggesting any of us become responsible for every 
electrical issues on the property, but that we offer a home electrical 
inspection to point out the deficiencies.
The client can decide whether or not to do the work that we've discovered needs 
upgrading. At the very least, they are informed. In a competitive solar 
environment, it allows you
to be the different integrator- one that is showing the full menu of services 
and focuses on safety and prudence.
Its like when you bring your service van in to the dealership. They do the basic 
items, then throw it on the computer and tell you, you need "X" work done. Or as 
they're doing the visual
inspection, they notice "X" needs to be replaced. We the customer, at that 
juncture, are informed and can decide whether or not we'd like to proceed. But 
at least we know and its
been brought to our attention.

So, yes- if you want to draw a clear line, you can. One proposal for the PV and 
one for the remediation work. At least they have choices and information that 
perhaps they weren't aware of before.
By taking some digital pics of the overloaded jbox, for example, they now have 
visual cues as to make decisions about their homes electrical infrastructure. If 
someone is investing thousands
of dollars in a PV system, doing some remedial work seems prudent. Sometimes 
homeowners haven't had an electrician in their homes for years and aren't even 
aware they have a hazard lurking
in the shadows. You never know, you might or could get a whole house rewire out 
of the PV job! 



________________________________
From: R Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 8:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation 
methods

Keith;

I try to catch some of those issues on our installs, but the problem is that you 
then become responsible for every electrical issue on the property.
If the wiring that you saw looked that bad, Keith, imagine what might be hidden 
in the wall?
Sometimes its easier to have a nice clear line drawn: we did the solar, 
everything else is their problem.

I definitely start fixing stuff, if I feel its going to spill over and make the 
solar malfunction. (clean up the load center wiring, service issues, and 
grounding, knock out that 2nd fridge in the sun....)
However, rewiring an overloaded 4x4 box is something I recommend not touching, 
unless you're being hired to rewire the whole place.
Just pulling out the wiring for inspection on some old 40's romex, can cause 
enough insulation to crack and fall away, that when you push it back in you will 
cause a short.
I hate being put in that position. Consider keeping the scope of work just to 
the load center, and replace breakers with GFCI and AFCI breakers.
Then you have substantially improved safety without opening any fresh cans o' 
worms. (ie overstuffed 4x boxes filled with old wire)


R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer


 

On Jan 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Keith Cronin wrote:

Folks.....
>
>
>To support this idea further, this weekend we have our building trade show at 
>our local convention center.
>New names, new faces in the solar industry each time I go. Today was no 
>different. Many are what I would describe as folks that only provide solar 
>installations. Others are offshoots of their respective trades, like roofing.
>
>
>Its the low hanging fruit, in their eyes, but my sense is they could be 
>providing more value that the customers are looking for, but don't know its even 
>available.
>If the margins are razor thin for PV, why not offer other wrench services that 
>others desire not to touch, as it might not be as glamorous, but necessary.
>
>
>I'm always surprised that when I get invited out to an install, like I did this 
>week, from one of my friendly competitors, how they seem to flagrantly overlook 
>other value added services which could benefit the customer.
>Here was my short list (10) from a small residential project I was invited to 
>see this week: (full disclosure, the home was old, code wise)
>
>
>1. GFCI receptacles- bathrooms, kitchen counter, outside and near the clients 
>pool.
>2. Smoke detectors- their were opportunities to install 5 at this home and 
>interconnect them to notify everyone in the home, in the event of an emergency.
>3. Panel labeling- identifying the circuits in the breaker box for the client.
>4. Upon removal of the panel cover- clean up wiring fiasco's waiting to happen- 
>doubled up wires on breakers and a slew of other code issues.
>5. Open junction boxes with wires essentially incapable of being stuffed into 
>the 4x4 j-box; over an extension cover and a blank plate.
>6. Broken receptacle in the hallway; I suspect this is the vacuum cleaner plug 
>and it was probably damaged due to jerking out the cord instead of leaning over 
>to pull it out.
>7. Fluorescent fixtures in the garage-workshop zone; upgrade to T-8's and save $ 
>on the utility bill.
>8. In our market, we have a penchant for having the second refrigerator outside. 
>This one was in the sun, roasting at the end of the day. Checked the born on 
>date and it was 1994. This is not energy efficient by any means. Brought my 
>Brand meter and was surprised at the amount of juice it was consuming. 
>Recommended taking the client to Sears and get an energy efficient one. Client 
>has a sentimental attachment to the refrigerator, but at my calcs, this 
>sentimental relationship was costing $22 a month.
>9. They had the ubiquitous extension cord wrapped around the living room for a 
>mondo computer station. I recommended running a dedicated circuit to remedy the 
>code/cord situation.
>10. In one section of the home, was the original part of the house and there 
>were still an old 6 circuit load center, filled to the gill with 12 circuits in 
>it. Clearly this was not designed to handle this much load and capacity, so I 
>recommended replacing it and or doing a calc to see if the feeder has reached 
>its limits and offer to re-route some of the circuits to the main panel.
>
>
>I recommended to my friend, the competitor, to offer a free home inspection to 
>identify the deficiencies in their electrical infrastructure and add value to 
>the relationship. Seems simple, but often the PV is taking a front seat to other 
>things. In a competitive environment, that we are all in now, if we are all 
>doing apples to apples, then price seems to be the winner. When we add and offer 
>something else to the relationship, we have more than just a transaction. When 
>we all take the steps to raise the bar, others will follow. Everyones name gets 
>elevated, brand awareness wise and consumers will talk to each other about their 
>experiences and the value/education they've received. Sure, some entities will 
>do the minimum, as always. By providing a final package to your customers, upon 
>completion of your work, they would have pictures, documents etc., to show the 
>system in working condition (and attached to the roof!!).
>
>
>Over the years, I've always elected to go out and fix others challenges, as it 
>has offered me perspective and a way to develop a relationship with someone who 
>might have been a little ignorant in their purchasing decisions. People tend to 
>remember you, when this happens and often you get referrals as a result. It also 
>means going into this type of relationship, delicately. I've not bashed the 
>competitor for what we've discovered, but to offer a solution to their current 
>situation and a step by step way to get there, together.
>
>
>Lastly, with technology today, you could get a video camera, some boiler plate 
>questions and ask your customers about their experience with you and your 
>company. Post them on your company website, FB, wherever you market your 
>services. Referrals, by far, are the best conduit for the next project, or at 
>least this has been my road to success. People want to do business with people 
>they like and trust and price might not always be the final decision maker, as 
>they really want a company that will follow the golden rule and execute on their 
>contracts words.
>
>
>If you know what your overhead is every day at your company, you can offer girl 
>scout cookies, if you can't sell a complete package to your prospective 
>customers. Uncover their desires by asking them what they want or what they've 
>heard about solar, is a bridge to understanding their needs first. Then can we 
>deliver on their needs.
>
>
>Keith
> 
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Nick Soleil <nicksoleilsolar at yahoo.com>
>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 9:24:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation 
>methods
>
>
>Hi Joel:
>    For many years, when  Petersen Dean was Old Country Roofing, I would install 
>the inverters and wiring for the Atlantis Sunslate roofs that they would sell.  
>I liked that partnership.  Also, I recognize that solar is less and less of a 
>specialty anymore.  Sooner than later, I would expect that solar installations 
>will be installed largely by electricians, general contractors, and even roofing 
>contractors (as long as they carry appropriate licensing.)
>    However, many of my old partners, such as roofers who I have often referred, 
>are now entering the solar industry.   So my partners are becoming my 
>competitors.  They have that right.  
>    My hope is that whoever is installing solar, will at least provide a quality 
>installation.  What worries me about the system I serviced this week, where the 
>modules were left sitting on a sloped roof without attachments, is that the 
>roofing attachments is the aspect of the project that the roofer should be able 
>to do best, but they skipped that step.  That gives me some concern for the 
>safety of PV system owners and their neighbors.
>
> Nick Soleil
>Project Manager
>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>PO Box 657
>Petaluma, CA 94953
>Cell: 707-321-2937
>Office: 707-789-9537
>Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:55:21 PM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation 
>methods
>
>
>Andrew,
> 
>Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 1970s, 
>but that's not a wrenches subject.
> 
>Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some 
>of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't 
>have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. 
>But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work 
>with others.
> Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural 
>engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then 
>what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can 
>control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? 
>There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to 
>have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You 
>know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion 
>of your work. So what's the hassle?
> 
>Joel Davidson
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Solar Energy Solutions
>>To: RE-wrenches
>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
>>methods
>>
>>
>>Joel,
>> 
>>Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help the 
>>unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses.  We get  
>>a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems.  It 
>>is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, 
>>they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles.  This whole 
>>thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems 
>>were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
>> 
>>Respectfully, 
>>
>>
>>
>>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
>>President
>>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
>>Since 1987,
>>Moving Portland and Beyond
>>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
>>503-238-4502
>>www.solarenergyoregon.com
>> 
>>"Better one's House too little one day
>>than too big all the Year after."
>>
>>--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Joel Davidson <joel.davidson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation 
>>>methods
>>>To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>Guys,
>>>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad 
>>>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your 
>>>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and 
>>>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
>>>Joel Davidson
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Warren Lauzon
>>>>To: RE-wrenches
>>>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
>>>>methods
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar 
>>>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were 
>>>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your 
>>>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the 
>>>>inverter, and not in conduit.
>>>>  
>>>>From: Nick Soleil
>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
>>>>To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
>>>>methods
>>>> Hi wrenches:
>>>>   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell 
>>>>solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.  Listen to 
>>>>this neat story.
>>>>   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and 
>>>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that the 
>>>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to 
>>>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the 
>>>>structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
>>>>    Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact 
>>>>connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system was not 
>>>>operating, and called us to the site.  
>>>>
>>>> Nick Soleil
>>>>Project Manager
>>>>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>>>>PO Box 657
>>>>Petaluma, CA 94953
>>>>Cell: 707-321-2937
>>>>Office: 707-789-9537
>>>>Fax: 707-769-9037
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
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