[RE-wrenches] High end Lawn Art was: NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid
Dave Click
daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu
Mon Nov 30 09:16:25 PST 2009
I disagree, but maybe I'm just a sucker for BIPV since it's on my house.
A lot of BIPV work- integrating into skylights, facades, or tile- could
be interpreted as being "not a good renewable application," due to
higher operating temperature or imperfect orientation.
Obviously, when looking at a prospective installation you should do the
best with what you have and if you have a choice between two array
locations, then with all else being equal you should install the array
where it operates the most efficiently.
I think the key is just to make sure the customer is aware of the
inefficiency that accompanies an installation like this. We're going to
see a lot more BIPV in the future, and often we'll be locked in to the
original geometries of the buildings; the aesthetics of
awkwardly-oriented BIPV will likely win out over a high-profile racking
system that keeps the system at optimal efficiency. There will still be
jobs to turn down (e.g. an architect wants a building's white facade to
be the backs of modules, while insisting on a 10-year payback).
DKC
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [RE-wrenches] High end Lawn Art was: NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid
From: Bill Loesch <solar1online at charter.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/11/30 09:09
> Hi Dave,
>
> Isn't using the building face or other appendage, rather than or in addition
> to the roof what one definition of BIPV is ?
>
> Regarding the non optimum azimuth orientation -
>
> Unfortunate that others around the country are seeing poorly implemented
> renewable applications, too. IMHO, this is terribly counter productive in
> that a highly visible system gives the message to the viewers that this is a
> valid application. Perhaps it is a cost effective _marketing tool_, but
> _not_ a good renewable application. It unfortunately promotes the general
> public's misunderstanding of what a good installation is. Moreover, this
> nonsense is often implemented by users that are promoting their technical
> expertise (obviously in areas other than solar, hopefully).
>
> The up side to this travesty of resources, materials, and labor is that the
> solar array is less obviously, not performing well as compared to a wind
> machine sitting idle.
>
> I believe it was Red Adair (the world class oil field fire fighter) who is
> given credit for the expression, "Don't be afraid to walk away." A sentiment
> that might find use here.
>
> I am aware of others on this List that have a web "Rogue's Gallery" of how
> not to do it. Is there any place where this is a unified collection?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Click" <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu>
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid
>
>
>>> Speaking of IBEW, how
>> > about the installation done in Dorchester, Ma., do you mount your
> arrays
>> > vertically?
>>
>> That (relatively small--5.4kW) array was installed vertically to improve
>> its visibility from I-93. It was understood that vertical PV facing
>> somewhat SE wouldn't have been as efficient as a 30 degree slope facing
>> south, but visibility was more important than increasing the energy
>> production by $60/yr.
>>
>> DKC
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid
>> From: Tump <tump at hughes.net>
>> To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Date: 2009/11/26 10:03
>>
>>> Having worked for many years educating my clients, legislators and other
>>> officials of the value of a NABCEP certification,NABCEP IS important to
>>> me. I have invested many hours working w/ the early supporters,
>>> developing a national certification program which morphed into the
>>> NABCEP program. I also work on various NABCEP committees working to
>>> insure NABCEP,the test & the test questions are relevant AND continue to
>>> address the real world of PV installations I personally find your lack
>>> of support for the NABCEP certification undermining.
>>> Recently while developing new test questions for /_both on & off grid
>>> applications_/, myself & the installers working w/ NABCEP, the testing
>>> lab & some other HIGHLY qualified individuals got into a row about how
>>> tough we were making the entry level questions. "This isn't what those
>>> kids will know". The installers argued that NABCEP is the best
>>> benchmark & the test was a method of helping our industry weed out those
>>> people that want a easy transition into our/your solar world. We were
>>> finally able to convince the dissenters that the tough questions WERE
>>> the right way to go.
>>> I think that many folks see the NABCEP program "a way in",the actual
>>> certification test is NOT an easy.
>>> It is true that NOTHING will prevent some low balling jerk (NABCEP
>>> certified or not) from getting the job.
>>> There are those of us who see the value in the certification, while the
>>> St. of Maine sees it (the NABCEP test) as too tough a test so what did
>>> they do? They have developed one of their own tests,something that
>>> allows very poor quality of work to be accepted for rebate funds, (some
>>> of it performed by IBEW & licensed electricians). Speaking of IBEW, how
>>> about the installation done in Dorchester, Ma., do you mount your arrays
>>> vertically?
>>> Yeah I loose jobs too, because I charge a competitive rate,install a
>>> quality a product,value my insurance, both health & liability.I
>>> also value my reputation as someone that is considered "one of the
>>> better installers" in the state where I live & work!
>>> There are many of us that have worked to improve the value of the
>>> NABCEP program, you may have seen my personal attack & praise of the
>>> NABCEP program.
>>> I find presently that the increasing awareness of the NABCEP program
>>> comforting,BUT, I too find the lack of support from the industry & some
>>> States frustrating.
>>> Certification is NOT for everyone, its expensive & time consuming but w/
>>> continued interest from folks that may be on the fence & the continuing
>>> hard work marketing the certification program "as the one to have", we
>>> will continue to see the quality minded customer looking for that NABCEP
>>> certification.
>>> Please review some of the questions on the test, perhaps one of these
>>> days you too will see the value of NABCEP & become one of the proud,
>>> frustrated NABCEP certificate holders.
>>> Were you also someone that said that computers were too costly and a
>>> waste of time?
>>> OK I've gotta go & saddle bend up my horse & ride off to turkey
> land.......
>>> *Tump at swnl.net* <mailto:Tump at swnl.net> _*www.SWNL.net*
>>> <http://www.swnl.net/>_
>>> Solarwinds Northernlights
>>> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
>>> Me.# 207-832-7574 Cl.# 610-517-8401/*
>>>
>>> /* Blair "TUMP" May*/
>>> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>>> _ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_/**/_
>>> _
>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>>> /**/_Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
>>> _ /*
>>> */ /*
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
>>> *William Miller
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:48 AM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid
>>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>> I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:
>>>
>>> 1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd
>>> normally lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the
>>> test, but it won't.
>>>
>>> 2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered
>>> electricians. Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to
>>> install the most basic grid tie system. Conversely, many
>>> electricians with the most basic electrical skills think they know
>>> all that needs to be known to design and install solar-electric.
>>> Wrong again.
>>>
>>> I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry
>>> by force, but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging
>>> well rounded electrician's skills. How many solar installers can
>>> actually lay an offset into a stick of EMT? Not many. Most are
>>> glorified stereo installers, plugging and praying.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> William Miller
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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