[RE-wrenches] Sealing roof attachments... Or not, as the case may be...

[max at seesolar.com]

Thanks Matt, I've also gone to flashed mountings because of all the above, however after reading your e-mail, I'm considering going back to building surfboards - didn't make much money, but I had a lot more fun and I could sleep at night. 

Max Balchowsky
SEE Systems




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From: Matt Lafferty <gilligan06 at gmail.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:53:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sealing roof attachments... Or not, as the case may be...


Hi Jim and anybody else who still thinks about doing direct penetration mounting on comp roofs,
 
I'm in the same camp as William. How many lawyers did you say there were in Texas? Isn't that a "right to sue" state? 
Please don't do silly modified hanger bolts with a dinky washer and a dab o' goo... AKA "Bozo Bolts". If you use them, then you only encourage more Bozos to use them, which only encourages more Bozos to make and market them which eventually leads to a Solar Bozo Association and an annual Bozo Bolt Convention and Bozo Bolt Spam... Geez!  Uggh!  Yech!
 
Get your attachments right. You should consider them to be the foundation for your roof-mounted rack. Getting them right includes structural and waterproofing. The right solution will be different for different applications. If you are going to install conventional racking on a comp-shingle or other roof system that relies on slope and overlapped courses as the roof covering, you really have to use a flashed mounting system these days. There are plenty out there to choose from now. 
 
The real time in installing any rafter attached mount is locating and hitting the rafter in the center without compromising the primary roof covering. Doesn't matter if you're using a flashed or dingbat mounting. On comp, I found that flashing-based standoffs only took about 2 minutes longer to install than L-feet on average, including carrying them to the roof, etc. Hint: Use a hook-blade in your utility knife for roofing operations. I will say that, in drier climates, I am not nearly as apprehensive of otherwise "well-installed" L-feet as I am that Bozo Bolt you sent a picture of. I used to rely on a combination of skill, procedure, and quality sealants when I used L-feet and other unflashed mountings. Never really had any serious problems (that I know of), but I recommend flashed mounts all the way now.
 
From a very basic perspective, think about this: There is NOT a single roof-industry acceptable practice for non-flashed penetrations on these roof coverings. This means that you are first and last in the line of liability if you use these methods. Any manufacturer or installer warranty that might have existed before you got there are now null and void. You gotta ask yourself one thing, "Do I feel lucky?" 
 
If you feel lucky, then I recommend you do this: Go find a reputable roofer. One that has been in business a long time, carries insurance, has the right contractor's license... Make sure he's not about to retire, though. Tell him you want a price for him to install those Bozo Bolts on a brand new comp roof and warranty the installation for 10 years. See what he tells you. IF he will even do it and gives you a price, you now have a comparison price to apply toward a flashed mounting. It ain't just the price of a bolt! 
 
Roof Leaks
 
One thing that I don't remember discussing on this list is not necessarily widely understood. I think, in general, we all worry about "the dreaded roof leak". There are fundamentally two basic categories of roof leaks. The ones you see on the ceiling right away and the ones you don't.
 
I think, in general, the vision of a homeowner calling us up in the middle of a rainstorm explaining that their ceiling just fell on top of their Thanksgiving dinner is the one we dread the most. While this is not a happy scenario and causes some discomfort, it's something we can get fixed and paid for in relatively short order. "Yes, ma'am. I'm terribly sorry about your mother-in-law's nightmares. No ma'am, I've never eaten a turkey with drywall stuffing..."
 
Compare this to what I call the Stealthy Seeper. These are leaks that aren't readily apparent, generally not high-volume/velocity, and can go undetected for very long periods of time. I've seen plenty of these and they range from mild to bankruptcy on the "what it takes to fix it" scale. The Stealthy Seeper is the most common cause of what we broadly call Dry Rot. We've all seen it around bathrooms and windows. In the old days, we used to open up the floor or wall, scrape the white stuff off, splash some copper-green on it, and replace a piece of wood or two if needed. Some "contractors" would just cover it up. Some still do all of the above even though it is an illegal practice in many states now. As in possible criminal charges, illegal.
 
When the Stealthy Seeper originates from the roof, it is generally not discovered until one of three things happens:
1)  Someone in the home (or business) is suffering from asthmatic symptoms or mold allergies they didn't have before;
2)  Ceiling or roof begins sagging noticeably;
3)  Home inspector (or termite guy) discovers it during a pre-sale bank inspection.
 
While it's never a good time to have Dry Rot, certain times and ways it is discovered are worse than others. Generally speaking, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets. People tend to notice when the floor around the commode starts feeling mushy, but they don't notice the white and black stuff growing in their attic right away. If they don't find out about it until somebody is sick for no apparent reason, then it's a problem that paint and linoleum ain't gonna fix. If they don't find out about it until the ceiling or roof is sagging, then there's a good chance those little spores have a really good head start. If they don't find out about it until there's an inspector for a potential buyer poking around, then it's gonna cost thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs and lost property value... IF the potential buyer can even execute financing after the inspection.
 
In many states, the disclosure laws for sale of real-property now require disclosure of mold histories. A growing number have reporting and handling requirements that make asbestos look like candy. A growing number of mold strains are being classified as toxic hazards. Last I knew, there were 18 of them on the EPA list. And, yes, toxic hazard status means the guys in the white suits with breathing apparatus... Buildings with tents over them are not just for termites anymore! So, even if the home wasn't for sale when the Stealthy Seeper was discovered, it is entirely possible that the financial impacts will continue later, such as when they try to refinance or sell their home. 
 
If you are ever involved in a claim such as this, your insurance company will do everything they can to permanently settle & close the case so they don't have ongoing exposure. Then they will cancel your policy, if they haven't already. Good luck getting another one once you make it onto that list!
 
The disclosure laws are and have been pushed by insurance companies, due to the SUPER-SIZED quantity and value of moldy lawsuits. Water-incursion caused "construction defect" lawsuits are so prolific (and profitable for some) that banks & insurance companies will do anything they can to avoid them. A big part of the cost of flood-damage reconstruction & insurance is to avoid mold claims down the road. The biggest reason "new construction" liability insurance for contractors is so expensive &/or unavailable is directly related to this. I personally know two general contractors that quit doing everything else except destructive investigations for these mold-seeking lawyers. They both told me the same thing... "If I keep doing construction, I'm gonna end up getting sued by one of these guys. They pay me a fortune to fly all over the state with a digital camera, hammer, prybar, cordless sawzall, and a laptop. I line up a local roofer or lather to
 temporarily cover up the holes I make with felt or building paper. Then I write a report in the hotel or on the plane home, and pick up a check when I walk in their office the next day. Sometimes I go testify in court. I never make less than a grand a day plus expenses no matter what I'm doing for them. Why would I want to bother with all the headaches of regular contracting?" They both separately admitted that they will tear apart any amount of a building they have to in order to find a black-mold sample. They don't have to find "it all"... They just have to find the slightest amount. I quit associating with them years ago on principle.
 
I met a guy 3 years ago that has a toxic-mold sniffing dog that makes him a small fortune by walking around barking at walls. This guy doesn't own a hammer. He uses a digtal camera and video camera. He and his dog go sit in court and testify in these cases all the time. His dog is a registered service animal, so she gets to go to concerts and nice restaurants with him. I've thought about doing this myself. Not the barking part. His work basically comes in two forms... Preventative and remediative. Banks hire him prior to approving financing & refinancing, generally on larger developments such as subdivisions or apartments. Including new construction! Lawyers & insurance companies hire him when there's a claim. He doesn't care which "side" he works for, frankly. His reasoning? "It doesn't matter. This isn't a moral issue and my dog doesn't care either way. She just alerts if there is toxic mold and doesn't alert if there isn't. It's just the
 facts." Here's an ironic thing to think about: His dog goes through more continuing education than NABCEP requires. Whenever there is a new strain identified, it's "back to school for poochie". 
 
I'm not going to get into details of some of the "water incursion" cases I have direct and/or 2nd hand knowledge of for a lot of reasons. Certainly not in this forum. I will say that, fortunately, only a couple of these cases "appear" that solar might be a contributing factor at this time.
 
My reason for going into all this? Simple. The fact that the question of "to flash or not to flash" is coming up in this day and age tells me that it's time to have a serious discussion about risks associated with roof leaks. I don't want to be alarmist by any means. Just sharing some insights into some of the very real factors that affect every one of us and we might not even realize it. It is directly related to the work we do, the choices we make in how we do that work, and the ramifications associated with those choices. I don't want to hear horror stories about things that could and should have been avoided. I think we have better choices available in products and methods now, as well as more comprehensive knowledge and understanding of some of the things that were in the "gray areas" before.  
The bottom line is this: When it comes to commercial activity, such as installing solar systems on roofs for money, there is a very important formula to remember:
 
    N = $$$, where "N" is "negligence".
 
Everybody is looking for the "N-Guy". Don't be that guy! One way to avoid it completely is to apply the best or "approved" practices of the most applicable industry. In the case of waterproofing a roof attachment point on a roof, that would be the roofing industry. By following their practices, you might have a leak, but the likelihood will be WAAAAY less to begin with and you won't be the "N-Guy". 
 
This isn't a moral judgement, it's a business judgement. Having this understanding should be the best salestool you can use to explain the differences between your proposal and BozoBolt! In my experience, the customer that "doesn't get it" or "still wants something for nothing" is not my customer. 
 
Prayer alone won't stop roof leaks!
 
Matt Lafferty


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Wrenches
I know this issue has been pretty well hashed over on this site but I see a trend that I'm not sure how to relate to. The number of roof mounted PV structure mfgrs is on the rise and many are migrating to the US market from elsewhere. 
The trend now seems to be to drill thru the 3-tab shingles, tiles etc and into a rafter. Then drive home a threaded lag bolt with a patch of sealant on the exposed surface and covered by a large flat metal washer. Of course most all the mfgrs will offer an optional flashed version of attachment. 
So has the technology of sealants improved to a point that only a dollop is needed or is this just an adaptation of a European product coming here with hopes that it will work in this market as well as it does there. 
And how much of new products is simply cutting costs by reducing the amount of materials needed. 
 
Thanks as always
Jim Duncan
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