<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>Thanks Matt, I've also gone to flashed mountings because of all the above, however after reading your e-mail, I'm considering going back to building surfboards - didn't make much money, but I had a lot more fun and I could sleep at night. </DIV>
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<DIV>Max Balchowsky</DIV>
<DIV>SEE Systems<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Matt Lafferty <gilligan06@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 26, 2009 9:53:01 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [RE-wrenches] Sealing roof attachments... Or not, as the case may be...<BR></FONT><BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Jim and anybody else who still thinks about doing direct penetration mounting on comp roofs,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I'm in the same camp as William. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>How many lawyers did you say there were in Texas? Isn't that a "right to sue" state? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>Please don't do silly modified hanger bolts with a dinky washer and a dab o' goo... AKA <EM>"Bozo Bolts".</EM> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>If you use them, then you only encourage more Bozos to use them, which only encourages more Bozos to make and market them which eventually leads to a Solar Bozo Association and an annual Bozo Bolt Convention and Bozo Bolt Spam... Geez! Uggh! Yech!</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Get your attachments right. You should consider them to be the foundation for your roof-mounted rack. Getting them right includes structural and waterproofing. The right solution will be different for different applications. If you are going to install conventional racking on a comp-shingle or other roof system that relies on slope and overlapped courses as the roof covering, you really have to use a flashed mounting system these days. There are plenty out there to choose from now. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>The real time in installing any rafter attached mount is locating and hitting the rafter in the center <STRONG><EM><U>without compromising the primary roof covering</U></EM></STRONG>. Doesn't matter if you're using a flashed or dingbat mounting. On comp, I found that flashing-based standoffs only took about 2 minutes longer to install than L-feet on average, including carrying them to the roof, etc. <EM>Hint: Use a hook-blade in your utility knife for roofing operations. </EM>I will say that, in drier climates, I am not nearly as apprehensive of otherwise "well-installed" L-feet as I am that Bozo Bolt you sent a picture of. <SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>I used to rely on a combination of skill, procedure, and quality sealants when I used L-feet and other unflashed
mountings. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>Never really had any serious problems <EM>(that I know of)</EM>, but </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff><U><STRONG>I recommend flashed mounts all the way no</STRONG>w</U>.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>From a very basic perspective, think about this: There is NOT a single roof-industry acceptable practice for non-flashed penetrations on these roof coverings. This means that you are <U><STRONG>first</STRONG> <STRONG>and last</STRONG></U> in the line of liability if you use these methods. Any manufacturer or installer warranty that might have existed before you got there are now null and void. You gotta ask yourself one thing, <EM>"Do I feel lucky?"</EM> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>If you feel lucky, then I recommend you do this: Go find a reputable roofer. One that has been in business a long time, carries insurance, has the right contractor's license... Make sure he's not about to retire, though. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>Tell him you want a price for him to install those Bozo Bolts on a brand new comp roof and warranty the installation for 10 years. See what he tells you. IF he will even do it and gives you a price, you now have a comparison price to apply toward a flashed mounting. It ain't just the price of a bolt! </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><STRONG><U>Roof Leaks</U></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>One thing that I don't remember discussing on this list is not necessarily widely understood. I think, in general, we all worry about <EM>"the dreaded roof leak".</EM> There are fundamentally two basic categories of roof leaks. The ones you see on the ceiling right away and the ones you don't.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>I think, in general, the vision of a homeowner calling us up in the middle of a rainstorm explaining that their ceiling just fell on top of their Thanksgiving dinner is the one we dread the most. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>While this is not a happy scenario and causes some discomfort, it's something we can get fixed and paid for in relatively short order. <EM>"Yes, ma'am. I'm terribly sorry about your mother-in-law's nightmares. No ma'am, I've never eaten a turkey with drywall stuffing..."</EM></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>Compare this to what I call the Stealthy Seeper. These are leaks that aren't readily apparent, generally not high-volume/velocity, and can go undetected for very long periods of time. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>I've seen plenty of these and they range from mild to bankruptcy on the "what it takes to fix it" scale. <SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>The Stealthy Seeper is the most common cause of what we broadly call Dry Rot. We've all seen it around bathrooms and windows. In the old days, we used to open up the floor or wall, scrape the white stuff off, splash some copper-green on it, and replace a piece of wood or two if needed. Some "contractors" would just cover it up. Some still do all of the above even though it is an illegal
practice in many states now. As in possible criminal charges, illegal.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>When the Stealthy Seeper originates from the roof, it is generally not discovered until one of three things happens:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>1) Someone in the home (or business) is suffering from asthmatic symptoms or mold allergies they didn't have before;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>2) Ceiling or roof begins sagging noticeably;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>3) Home inspector (or termite guy) discovers it during a pre-sale bank inspection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>While it's never a good time to have Dry Rot, certain times and ways it is discovered are worse than others. Generally speaking, the longer it goes on, the worse it gets. People tend to notice when the floor around the commode starts feeling mushy, but they don't notice the white and black stuff growing in their attic right away. If they don't find out about it until somebody is sick for no apparent reason, then it's a problem that paint and linoleum ain't gonna fix. If they don't find out about it until the ceiling or roof is sagging, then there's a good chance those little spores have a really good head start. If they don't find out about it until there's an inspector for a potential buyer poking around, then it's gonna cost thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs and lost property value... IF the potential buyer can even execute financing after
the inspection.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>In many states, the disclosure laws for sale of real-property now require disclosure of mold histories. A growing number have reporting and handling requirements that make asbestos look like candy. A growing number of mold strains are being classified as toxic hazards. Last I knew, there were 18 of them on the EPA list. And, yes, toxic hazard status means the guys in the white suits with breathing apparatus... Buildings with tents over them are not just for termites anymore! </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>So, even if the home wasn't for sale when the Stealthy Seeper was discovered, it is entirely possible that the financial impacts will continue later, such as when they try to refinance or sell their home. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If you are ever involved in a claim such as this, your insurance company will do everything they can to permanently settle & close the case so they don't have ongoing exposure. Then they will cancel your policy, if they haven't already. Good luck getting another one once you make it onto that list!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009></SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>T<SPAN class=212223417-23012009>he disclosure laws are and have</SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009> been pushed by insurance companies, due to the SUPER-SIZED quantity and value of moldy lawsuits. Water-incursion caused "construction defect" lawsuits are so prolific <EM>(and profitable for some)</EM> that banks & insurance companies will do anything they can to avoid them. A big part of the cost of flood-damage reconstruction & insurance is to avoid mold claims down the road. The biggest reason "new construction" liability insurance for contractors is so expensive &/or unavailable is directly related to this. I personally know two general contractors that quit doing everything else except destructive investigations for these mold-seeking lawyers. They both told me the same thing... <EM>"If I keep
doing construction, I'm gonna end up getting sued by one of these guys. They pay me a fortune to fly all over the state with a digital camera, hammer, prybar, cordless sawzall, and a laptop. I line up a local roofer or lather to temporarily cover up the holes I make with felt or building paper. Then I write a report in the hotel or on the plane home, and pick up a check when I walk in their office the next day. Sometimes I go testify in court. I never make less than a grand a day plus expenses no matter what I'm doing for them. </EM></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><EM>Why would I want to bother with all the headaches of regular contracting?"</EM> They both separately admitted that they will tear apart any amount of a building they have to in order to find a black-mold sample. They don't have to find "it all"... They just have to find the slightest amount. I quit associating with them years ago on
principle.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>I met a guy 3 years ago that has a toxic-mold sniffing dog that makes him a small fortune by walking around barking at walls. This guy doesn't own a hammer. He uses a digtal camera and video camera. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>He and his dog go sit in court and testify in these cases all the time.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff> His dog is a registered service animal, so she gets to go to concerts and nice restaurants with him. I've thought about doing this myself. Not the barking part. His work basically comes in two forms... Preventative and remediative. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>Banks hire him prior to approving financing & refinancing, generally on larger developments such as subdivisions or apartments.
Including new construction! </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>Lawyers & insurance companies hire him when there's a claim. He doesn't care which "side" he works for, frankly. His reasoning? <EM>"It doesn't matter. This isn't a moral issue and my dog doesn't care either way. She just alerts if there is toxic mold and doesn't alert if there isn't. It's just the facts</EM>." Here's an ironic thing to think about: His dog goes through more continuing education than NABCEP requires. Whenever there is a new strain identified, it's "back to school for poochie". </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I'm not going to get into details of some of the "water incursion" cases I have direct and/or 2nd hand knowledge of for a lot of reasons. Certainly not in this forum. I will say that, fortunately, only a couple of these cases "appear" that solar might be a contributing factor at this time.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>My reason for going into all this? Simple. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT color=#0000ff>The fact that the question of <EM>"to flash or not to flash" </EM>is coming up in this day and age tells me that it's time to have a serious discussion about risks associated with roof leaks. I don't want to be alarmist by any means. Just sharing some insights into some of the very real factors that affect every one of us and we might not even realize it. It is directly related to the work we do, the choices we make in how we do that work, and the ramifications associated with those choices. I don't want to hear horror stories about things that could and should have been avoided. I think we have better choices available in products and methods now, as well as more comprehensive
knowledge and understanding of some of the things that were in the "gray areas" before. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The bottom line is this: When it comes to commercial activity, such as installing solar systems on roofs for money, there is a very important formula to remember:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2> <EM><FONT color=#0000ff>N = $$$, where "N" is "negligence".</FONT></EM></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Everybody is looking for the "N-Guy". Don't be that guy! One way to avoid it completely is to apply the best or "approved" practices of the most applicable industry. In the case of waterproofing a roof attachment point on a roof, that would be the roofing industry. By following their practices, you might have a leak, but the likelihood will be WAAAAY less to begin with and you won't be the "N-Guy". </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This isn't a moral judgement, it's a business judgement. Having this understanding should be the best salestool you can use to explain the differences between your proposal and BozoBolt! In my experience, the customer that "doesn't get it" or "still wants something for nothing" is not my customer. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=212223417-23012009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Prayer alone won't stop roof leaks!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV align=left><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>Matt Lafferty</STRONG></FONT></EM></DIV><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wrenches</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know this issue has been pretty well hashed over on this site but I see a trend that I'm not sure how to relate to. The number of roof mounted PV structure mfgrs is on the rise and many are migrating to the US market from elsewhere. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The trend now seems to be to drill thru the 3-tab shingles, tiles etc and into a rafter. Then drive home a threaded lag bolt with a patch of sealant on the exposed surface and covered by a large flat metal washer. Of course most all the mfgrs will offer an optional flashed version of attachment. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So has the technology of sealants improved to a point that only a dollop is needed or is this just an adaptation of a European product coming here with hopes that it will work in this market as well as it does there. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And how much of new products is simply cutting costs by reducing the amount of materials needed. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks as always</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim Duncan<BR> </FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>