Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

mlafferty at universalenergies.com mlafferty at universalenergies.com
Sun Jun 1 08:00:25 PDT 2003





Matt Lafferty
Universal Energies Institute
mlafferty at universalenergies.com
(916) 422-9772
(916) 628-7694 Cell
(916) 914-2247 Fax
www.universalenergies.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean T. Newberry [mailto:deant at dcn.org] 
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]


Hi yAll,
I have requested Rainbow Fasteners to request a screw manufacturer to 
fabricate a standard pattern, 12-24 flange head self drilling screw in 
404 stainless for our use. I have placed an initial order for 50k units,

I expect to hear back the first week of june the willingness of the 
manufacturer to produce the order. The noncompliant screw, 12-16 flange 
head self driller I am using now costs $5.15/lb I expect the 12-24 
pattern to be a similar price.
cul  deant at dcn.org

EH Roy wrote:

>Bill,
>
>Like you and others, I have been pushing manufacturers to give us holes

>in module ends and also asking about the impacts of drilling them 
>ourselves.
>
>Evergreen was wishy-washy and didn't respond in writing. AstroPower 
>told me they wouldn't have a problem with us drilling the holes but 
>told me that it would void the UL listing of the module to ground it 
>differently than using the provided holes. This seems like a non-safety

>issue and the risk seems low that an electrical inspector would call us

>on it. But a utility inspector might jump on it and ruin one's day.
>
>Why so much resistance on the part of module manufacturers to give us a

>couple extra grounding holes? Are they worried about module aesthetics 
>or is it the additional paperwork and testing with UL, or is it just 
>the costs of modifying the manufacturing process? I get no response on 
>that.
>
>It would seem like a module manufacturer has a fantastic opportunity 
>right now to put in the additional grounding holes and grab a 
>significant additional share of the market before others follow suit.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>802 223-7804 x306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:05 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>E.H.
>
>Sorry for not responding earlier. I like to keep people on their toes 
>so they don't pigeon-hole me as an NEC-zealot.
>
>Another example of drilling arrays is Troy Strand's company IEC in 
>Southern California. His new commercial roof-mounting technique 
>consists of drilling four, self-tapping, fine-thread stainless screws 
>in each end of the module frame. He has worked with Kyocera, UniSolar, 
>and AstroPower, and none of them have problems with their modules being

>drilled in this manner.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:47 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: FW: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>Thanks for your reply. I agree that no equipment grounding on the array

>is a bad move and didn't mean to smack any hornet's nests with my note.

>This type of protest just seemed a bit out of character for you, but 
>the news that you have not been denied warranty claims on drilled 
>modules sure makes this practice less risky than I had perceived. 
>Thanks!
>
>E. H.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 9:26 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Mr. Roy,
>
>The manufacturer will always tell you it voids the warranty, but unless

>they can show a reasonable doubt that your hole caused the failure, an 
>installer would be foolish to accept that explanation for not honoring 
>a warranty. I have had three modules replaced myself for partial 
>failures--each had holes drilled, and the manufacturer honored the 
>warranty.
>
>I don't like telling people to drill holes and I warn them that the 
>manufacturer may give them a hard time on a warranty claim, but this is

>an active protest against an unresponsive manufacturing industry. They 
>have known about this issue for many years, and we continue to be stuck

>with fixing the crappy way modules are grounded and I'm fed up. 
>Apparently now there are some manufacturers finally taking this 
>seriously. If you're overly concerned that the manufacturer is going to

>use the hole as an excuse to deny your warranty, don't do it.
>
>The problem I see in the field is that installers don't do it at all, 
>and that is much worse than drilling holes in the end of the module. Of

>course, the danger of drilling the module frame is hitting the back 
>skin--so that must be protected to prevent disturbing the back skin.
>
>Good question and thanks for calling me on it.
>
>Bill.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:40 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>I am all for putting pressure on module manufacturers to put a decent 
>grounding mechanism in an accessible location on module frames (or rack

>manufacturers to develop a listed means of creating continuity between 
>module and rail) but I am quite surprised that you are teaching people 
>to drill holes in the end of the module when I think we have all been 
>told that voids the module warranty.
>
>When a module manufacturer receives a failed module that doesn't put 
>out warranted power after 15 years of use (it happens) and that 
>manufacturer denies replacement because it claims the warranty was 
>voided by a customer-drilled end hole, who pays for the replacement 
>module? The customer? The installer who drilled the hole? Or the guy 
>who taught the installer to do that?
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:42 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Jay,
>
>My experience is that manufacturers have universally not paid much 
>attention to this issue as seen with the various lame grounding methods

>that they allow according to their listing.
>
>The listing only allows connection at the grounding point. That's a 
>real pain for roof mounted systems. I've gotten fed up with 
>manufacturers being unresponsive and have started teach people to use 
>lay-in lugs on the end of the module for ease of installation. 
>Manufacturers have all kinds of heartburn when you start drilling holes

>in the end of their modules, but maybe that will drive them to drilling

>the hole for us.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:09 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Hi John and Bill,
>
>OK, so here is my question.
>
>I'm holding in my hand a "grounding screw" from Sharp/Schott.  This 
>screw is SS, is machine thread, and is really really small.  It is so 
>small that it will rattle around in the listed grounding hole.  Yes it 
>has a star washer.
>
>How is using this any different than installing a star washer on the 
>frame either under the mounting frame or a surface attachment for the 
>top down style?
>
>And if the manufacture gives me a grounding screw, can I use anything 
>else without voiding the UL warranty?  If so, can I install the ground 
>anywhere, or do I have to use the approved grounding hole?
>
>Thanks
>
>jay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Berdner" <jberdner at sma-america.com>
>To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:55 AM
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>  
>
>>Jay:
>>
>>The problem with grounding through the frame is that many of the 
>>frames are anodized aluminum (read as excellent insulator).  Unless 
>>the structure has been evaluated as a grounding member you can't rely 
>>on it to provide the equipment ground.  I think this could be solved 
>>with insulation piercing hardware, e.g. star washers, but so far none 
>>of the structure manufacturers has developed this concept to the point

>>that it can be listed as a means of grounding.  In absence of Listed 
>>"systems" that provide equivalent grounding means, the Code says you 
>>have to run a ground wire to every module to make sure it stays 
>>grounded.  The UL requirement for a ground is 0.1 Ohms at 60 Hz.  
>>Given that we are talking about dc I think UL would also want to see a

>>dc impedance measurement as well.
>>
>>Based on my own experience I have measured grounding impedances far 
>>above this level when using only the frames for grounding.  Others 
>>such as J. Wiles and B. Brooks have also confirmed high ground 
>>impedance on frames when only the structures are used. Until we have a

>>grounding structure system I think you have to run a ground wire (even

>>one long one daisy chanied) to every module.  Also, J. Wiles has 
>>convinced me that all splices in the equipment ground wires should 
>>made with "non removable" pressure connections, i.e. butt splices or 
>>ferrules. Just my $0.02.
>>
>>If you have any questions or if I may be of any further assistance, 
>>please do not hesitate to contact me.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>John Berdner
>>
>>SMA America, Inc.
>>12438-C Loma Rica Road
>>Grass Valley, CA  95945
>>530.273.4595 - Tel
>>530.274.7271 - Fax
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 09:50 AM
>>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>>
>>Hi Dean,
>>
>>Can you give me the code # that states all panels must be grounded in 
>>addition to the metal frame they are on?
>>
>>One installer I know puts in the permit all grounding to be done in 
>>accordance with 250.136(a).  This allows for only a single ground wire

>>from each seperate array.  Makes it much easier.
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>jay
>>
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>
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