Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
mlafferty at universalenergies.com
mlafferty at universalenergies.com
Sun Jun 1 08:00:25 PDT 2003
Matt Lafferty
Universal Energies Institute
mlafferty at universalenergies.com
(916) 422-9772
(916) 628-7694 Cell
(916) 914-2247 Fax
www.universalenergies.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean T. Newberry [mailto:deant at dcn.org]
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
Hi yAll,
I have requested Rainbow Fasteners to request a screw manufacturer to
fabricate a standard pattern, 12-24 flange head self drilling screw in
404 stainless for our use. I have placed an initial order for 50k units,
I expect to hear back the first week of june the willingness of the
manufacturer to produce the order. The noncompliant screw, 12-16 flange
head self driller I am using now costs $5.15/lb I expect the 12-24
pattern to be a similar price.
cul deant at dcn.org
EH Roy wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Like you and others, I have been pushing manufacturers to give us holes
>in module ends and also asking about the impacts of drilling them
>ourselves.
>
>Evergreen was wishy-washy and didn't respond in writing. AstroPower
>told me they wouldn't have a problem with us drilling the holes but
>told me that it would void the UL listing of the module to ground it
>differently than using the provided holes. This seems like a non-safety
>issue and the risk seems low that an electrical inspector would call us
>on it. But a utility inspector might jump on it and ruin one's day.
>
>Why so much resistance on the part of module manufacturers to give us a
>couple extra grounding holes? Are they worried about module aesthetics
>or is it the additional paperwork and testing with UL, or is it just
>the costs of modifying the manufacturing process? I get no response on
>that.
>
>It would seem like a module manufacturer has a fantastic opportunity
>right now to put in the additional grounding holes and grab a
>significant additional share of the market before others follow suit.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>802 223-7804 x306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:05 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>E.H.
>
>Sorry for not responding earlier. I like to keep people on their toes
>so they don't pigeon-hole me as an NEC-zealot.
>
>Another example of drilling arrays is Troy Strand's company IEC in
>Southern California. His new commercial roof-mounting technique
>consists of drilling four, self-tapping, fine-thread stainless screws
>in each end of the module frame. He has worked with Kyocera, UniSolar,
>and AstroPower, and none of them have problems with their modules being
>drilled in this manner.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:47 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: FW: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>Thanks for your reply. I agree that no equipment grounding on the array
>is a bad move and didn't mean to smack any hornet's nests with my note.
>This type of protest just seemed a bit out of character for you, but
>the news that you have not been denied warranty claims on drilled
>modules sure makes this practice less risky than I had perceived.
>Thanks!
>
>E. H.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 9:26 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Mr. Roy,
>
>The manufacturer will always tell you it voids the warranty, but unless
>they can show a reasonable doubt that your hole caused the failure, an
>installer would be foolish to accept that explanation for not honoring
>a warranty. I have had three modules replaced myself for partial
>failures--each had holes drilled, and the manufacturer honored the
>warranty.
>
>I don't like telling people to drill holes and I warn them that the
>manufacturer may give them a hard time on a warranty claim, but this is
>an active protest against an unresponsive manufacturing industry. They
>have known about this issue for many years, and we continue to be stuck
>with fixing the crappy way modules are grounded and I'm fed up.
>Apparently now there are some manufacturers finally taking this
>seriously. If you're overly concerned that the manufacturer is going to
>use the hole as an excuse to deny your warranty, don't do it.
>
>The problem I see in the field is that installers don't do it at all,
>and that is much worse than drilling holes in the end of the module. Of
>course, the danger of drilling the module frame is hitting the back
>skin--so that must be protected to prevent disturbing the back skin.
>
>Good question and thanks for calling me on it.
>
>Bill.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:40 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>I am all for putting pressure on module manufacturers to put a decent
>grounding mechanism in an accessible location on module frames (or rack
>manufacturers to develop a listed means of creating continuity between
>module and rail) but I am quite surprised that you are teaching people
>to drill holes in the end of the module when I think we have all been
>told that voids the module warranty.
>
>When a module manufacturer receives a failed module that doesn't put
>out warranted power after 15 years of use (it happens) and that
>manufacturer denies replacement because it claims the warranty was
>voided by a customer-drilled end hole, who pays for the replacement
>module? The customer? The installer who drilled the hole? Or the guy
>who taught the installer to do that?
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:42 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Jay,
>
>My experience is that manufacturers have universally not paid much
>attention to this issue as seen with the various lame grounding methods
>that they allow according to their listing.
>
>The listing only allows connection at the grounding point. That's a
>real pain for roof mounted systems. I've gotten fed up with
>manufacturers being unresponsive and have started teach people to use
>lay-in lugs on the end of the module for ease of installation.
>Manufacturers have all kinds of heartburn when you start drilling holes
>in the end of their modules, but maybe that will drive them to drilling
>the hole for us.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:09 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Hi John and Bill,
>
>OK, so here is my question.
>
>I'm holding in my hand a "grounding screw" from Sharp/Schott. This
>screw is SS, is machine thread, and is really really small. It is so
>small that it will rattle around in the listed grounding hole. Yes it
>has a star washer.
>
>How is using this any different than installing a star washer on the
>frame either under the mounting frame or a surface attachment for the
>top down style?
>
>And if the manufacture gives me a grounding screw, can I use anything
>else without voiding the UL warranty? If so, can I install the ground
>anywhere, or do I have to use the approved grounding hole?
>
>Thanks
>
>jay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Berdner" <jberdner at sma-america.com>
>To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:55 AM
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>
>
>>Jay:
>>
>>The problem with grounding through the frame is that many of the
>>frames are anodized aluminum (read as excellent insulator). Unless
>>the structure has been evaluated as a grounding member you can't rely
>>on it to provide the equipment ground. I think this could be solved
>>with insulation piercing hardware, e.g. star washers, but so far none
>>of the structure manufacturers has developed this concept to the point
>>that it can be listed as a means of grounding. In absence of Listed
>>"systems" that provide equivalent grounding means, the Code says you
>>have to run a ground wire to every module to make sure it stays
>>grounded. The UL requirement for a ground is 0.1 Ohms at 60 Hz.
>>Given that we are talking about dc I think UL would also want to see a
>>dc impedance measurement as well.
>>
>>Based on my own experience I have measured grounding impedances far
>>above this level when using only the frames for grounding. Others
>>such as J. Wiles and B. Brooks have also confirmed high ground
>>impedance on frames when only the structures are used. Until we have a
>>grounding structure system I think you have to run a ground wire (even
>>one long one daisy chanied) to every module. Also, J. Wiles has
>>convinced me that all splices in the equipment ground wires should
>>made with "non removable" pressure connections, i.e. butt splices or
>>ferrules. Just my $0.02.
>>
>>If you have any questions or if I may be of any further assistance,
>>please do not hesitate to contact me.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>John Berdner
>>
>>SMA America, Inc.
>>12438-C Loma Rica Road
>>Grass Valley, CA 95945
>>530.273.4595 - Tel
>>530.274.7271 - Fax
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 09:50 AM
>>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>>
>>Hi Dean,
>>
>>Can you give me the code # that states all panels must be grounded in
>>addition to the metal frame they are on?
>>
>>One installer I know puts in the permit all grounding to be done in
>>accordance with 250.136(a). This allows for only a single ground wire
>>from each seperate array. Makes it much easier.
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>jay
>>
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>
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