Let us not become the monster we fight today. [RE-wrenches]

[matthew tritt]

Dana,

Your observations are really good. There is a truth you might as well face
though, and that is that virtually all forms of energy consumed by modern
society enjoy some kind of subsidies, at some point in their production
and/or use. Nukes, coal, natural gas and hydro power all have benefited from
the re-distribution of wealth (taxation). Because of the capital intensive
nature of developing resources, both renewable and otherwise, few business
are willing or able to do all the development on their own. Without
subsidies it is highly probable that huge numbers of people would simply
freeze to death for lack of the wherewithal to buy fuel or power.

Because of the extremely high technology and high cost inherent in producing
photovoltaics, there's just no way that a meaningful number of people
(enough to make an impact on environmental degradation) will ever be in a
position to buy and install PV. Without subsidies that is. We must have
subsidies in place or we will never see photovoltaics reach the point of
competitiveness with conventional forms of power generation Hopefully this
will not remain the domain of the wealthy forever.

Michael thinks we're off-topic! :-)

Happy landings,

Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Orzel" <dana at solarwork.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:17 PM
Subject: Let us not become the monster we fight today. [RE-wrenches]


> > so dana,
> >
> > since "traditional" forms of fuel are subsidized to
> > the tune of billions of dollars per year, are you
> > saying that they aren't real industries either?
> >
> > jerry caldwell
> > oakland, ca
>
> Boy this is fun.
>
> No, the world of subsidy is not a real market. Look at California's summer
> of manipulated electrical markets, Look at the price structure differences
> for gasoline between the US and Europe,  Look at [repeated and repeatable]
> contrived oil shortages. I am not sure as to the reality of Europe's
prices
> either. At one point wood was traditional and so was horse drawn
> transportation, however neither would be viable today. PV has a place here
> and now. Let us not become the monster we fight today.
>
> Just as putting a PV system on the White House does not make Shrub boy an
> environmentalist, installing PV on subsidy does not make for a real market
> when the "traditional" market would prefer to see it go away. And is just
> waiting for the best opportunity to make it look like the old SHW systems
> that sit dysfunctional on so many roofs. Will people 20 years down the
road
> be calling and say " Yeh, I have all that PV stuff on the roof can you
come
> and remove it? You can have it if you pull it off the roof!"  And the
solar
> industry will be looking back and wonder what happened. Let us not be so
> blind in our greed. Let us not become the monster we fight today.
>
> Solar got a bad name after the Carter era with all of the scam bunnies out
> the selling complicated and junk systems.
> I service SHW systems that are 18 to 20 years old and they are still
kicking
> out the BTUs.
> I get such a kick out of meeting old SHW salesmen and the look in their
eyes
> and hearing the stories of "How much they made in those days." And they
are
> amazed that that shw#&^% they sold still works.
>
> I suggest [ here we go] that all subsidies for all energy be done away
with
> and let the customer market decide. Let the reality of real costs, real
> demand, and real production decide what the market will be. Nice dream ,
EH?
>
> As Todd put it  "The real question is are they sustainable... economically
> and environmentally"   Thanks Todd!
>
> Sustainable markets should be naturally renewable and as my byline sez -
> Responsible Technologies for Responsible People.
> Anyone can throw pearls to swine. I do not work with people that cannot -
> will not try make it through an Energy Analysis.
> Do the people really want change or to just look as if they care?
>
> I believe in grid tie totally, period this is not the issue. The grid is
not
> going away till free energy machines arrive. [ or $2.50/ watt PV which
ever
> comes first]
>
> The issue is the natural sustainability of our industry. As my favorite
> bumper sticker states - "If it swells ride it." and most of us will do
just
> that. But what happens to OUR industry when the swell hits the shore or a
> rock. The Laws of Nature rule despite how hard we try to force reality in
> another direction.
> Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> Good mantra try it on for size.
> Keep in integrity all, do not become what rules the market at present.
> Enough said.
>
> Good night all I am going paragliding tomorrow, flying on the free and
> wonderful wind, this is reality and leaves me feeling real and free.
>
> And Graham - Glad to hear you know about the rest of our industry and that
> you know how to turn a wrench.
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Responsible Technologies for Responsible People.
> Great Solar Works, Inc.
> dana at solarwork.com - 970.626.5253
> Ridgway, CO, USA
>
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