Let us not become the monster we fight today. [RE-wrenches]

Sat Feb 8 08:55:53 PST 2003

"Wind, solar and nuclear power received approx. $150 billion in cumulative
Federal subsidies over roughly fifty years, some 95% of which supported nuclear
power." from July 2000 REPP Research Report "Federal Energy Subsidies: Not All
Technologies Are Created Equal."

"Federal subsidies for energy totaled $564 billion (1997 dollars) over the past
five decades, most of them 'off budget.' Oil received the most money at $272
billion (48%) and renewable energy received the second largest subsidy at $90
billion (16%). The other major U.S. energy sources - coal, natural gas and
nuclear energy - each received between $61 billion and $74 billion of federal
incentive funds." Utility Business magazine October 1998. (The chart with the
article shows all Solar Energy getting $22.2 billion (4%) of the total $563.9
billion.)

Also see Richard Perez's article "Hidden Energy Costs" Home Power #16, April/May
1990.

Michael is ringing the bell so recess is over. Gotta get back to screwin' bolts.

matthew tritt wrote:

> Dana,
>
> Your observations are really good. There is a truth you might as well face
> though, and that is that virtually all forms of energy consumed by modern
> society enjoy some kind of subsidies, at some point in their production
> and/or use. Nukes, coal, natural gas and hydro power all have benefited from
> the re-distribution of wealth (taxation). Because of the capital intensive
> nature of developing resources, both renewable and otherwise, few business
> are willing or able to do all the development on their own. Without
> subsidies it is highly probable that huge numbers of people would simply
> freeze to death for lack of the wherewithal to buy fuel or power.
>
> Because of the extremely high technology and high cost inherent in producing
> photovoltaics, there's just no way that a meaningful number of people
> (enough to make an impact on environmental degradation) will ever be in a
> position to buy and install PV. Without subsidies that is. We must have
> subsidies in place or we will never see photovoltaics reach the point of
> competitiveness with conventional forms of power generation Hopefully this
> will not remain the domain of the wealthy forever.
>
> Michael thinks we're off-topic! :-)
>
> Happy landings,
>
> Matt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dana Orzel" <dana at solarwork.com>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:17 PM
> Subject: Let us not become the monster we fight today. [RE-wrenches]
>
> > > so dana,
> > >
> > > since "traditional" forms of fuel are subsidized to
> > > the tune of billions of dollars per year, are you
> > > saying that they aren't real industries either?
> > >
> > > jerry caldwell
> > > oakland, ca
> >
> > Boy this is fun.
> >
> > No, the world of subsidy is not a real market. Look at California's summer
> > of manipulated electrical markets, Look at the price structure differences
> > for gasoline between the US and Europe,  Look at [repeated and repeatable]
> > contrived oil shortages. I am not sure as to the reality of Europe's
> prices
> > either. At one point wood was traditional and so was horse drawn
> > transportation, however neither would be viable today. PV has a place here
> > and now. Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> >
> > Just as putting a PV system on the White House does not make Shrub boy an
> > environmentalist, installing PV on subsidy does not make for a real market
> > when the "traditional" market would prefer to see it go away. And is just
> > waiting for the best opportunity to make it look like the old SHW systems
> > that sit dysfunctional on so many roofs. Will people 20 years down the
> road
> > be calling and say " Yeh, I have all that PV stuff on the roof can you
> come
> > and remove it? You can have it if you pull it off the roof!"  And the
> solar
> > industry will be looking back and wonder what happened. Let us not be so
> > blind in our greed. Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> >
> > Solar got a bad name after the Carter era with all of the scam bunnies out
> > the selling complicated and junk systems.
> > I service SHW systems that are 18 to 20 years old and they are still
> kicking
> > out the BTUs.
> > I get such a kick out of meeting old SHW salesmen and the look in their
> eyes
> > and hearing the stories of "How much they made in those days." And they
> are
> > amazed that that shw#&^% they sold still works.
> >
> > I suggest [ here we go] that all subsidies for all energy be done away
> with
> > and let the customer market decide. Let the reality of real costs, real
> > demand, and real production decide what the market will be. Nice dream ,
> EH?
> >
> > As Todd put it  "The real question is are they sustainable... economically
> > and environmentally"   Thanks Todd!
> >
> > Sustainable markets should be naturally renewable and as my byline sez -
> > Responsible Technologies for Responsible People.
> > Anyone can throw pearls to swine. I do not work with people that cannot -
> > will not try make it through an Energy Analysis.
> > Do the people really want change or to just look as if they care?
> >
> > I believe in grid tie totally, period this is not the issue. The grid is
> not
> > going away till free energy machines arrive. [ or $2.50/ watt PV which
> ever
> > comes first]
> >
> > The issue is the natural sustainability of our industry. As my favorite
> > bumper sticker states - "If it swells ride it." and most of us will do
> just
> > that. But what happens to OUR industry when the swell hits the shore or a
> > rock. The Laws of Nature rule despite how hard we try to force reality in
> > another direction.
> > Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> > Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> > Let us not become the monster we fight today.
> > Good mantra try it on for size.
> > Keep in integrity all, do not become what rules the market at present.
> > Enough said.
> >
> > Good night all I am going paragliding tomorrow, flying on the free and
> > wonderful wind, this is reality and leaves me feeling real and free.
> >
> > And Graham - Glad to hear you know about the rest of our industry and that
> > you know how to turn a wrench.
> >
> > Dana Orzel
> >
> > Responsible Technologies for Responsible People.
> > Great Solar Works, Inc.
> > dana at solarwork.com - 970.626.5253
> > Ridgway, CO, USA
> >
> > - - - -
> > To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
> - - - -
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>
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