Bus Bars on batteries [RE-wrenches]

[Bill Brooks]

Jeff,

Good points, but everything in California must be inspected if you want the
state's money. This guarantees that most of the systems, for the
grid-connect market, are inspected. Inspections do not solve all the
problems, but they can be a big help when you have so many new people
entering the industry.

We need straightforward system design that don't require PE's like us to be
involved. I know it may help protect your piece of the market, but we will
never get to widespread use of this stuff unless we make the systems a whole
lot more idiot proof than they are right now. System costs cannot handle a
PE's involvement on every installation.

Bill.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources [mailto:global at sover.net]
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:50 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches at topica.com'
> Subject: RE: Bus Bars on batteries [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> The on-grid market is nowhere near 100% inspected. About 90% of
> VT does not
> have inspections for 1 and 2 family dwellings. Most of New York
> (outside of
> NYC) is not inspected. I'm less familiar with the rest of the
> country, but
> my understanding is that rural America is generally not inspected, until
> you get into commercial buildings.
>
> When I have dealt with battery banks in commercial / institutional
> structures, (non-PV related) we have typically needed to have a clean and
> neat installation, properly racked and ventilated. This is
> *generally* what
> inspectors look for in a lot of what they review, clean, neat, orderly.
> It's when they see a rats nest that they start to often dig deeper.
>
> I know this does not address the issues where they do want more,
> but in my
> broad experience, when the inspectors are digging, it is for a
> reason, and
> they may just be using a visible touch-stone (battery installation) as a
> way to get into something else. I have never had a battery
> install that has
> been rejected by an inspector. I have had to discuss the install, discuss
> the NEC requirements (and large lack of requirements) for battery
> systems,
> and generally detail my design decisions to the inspector. This usually
> makes them feel informed and aware, which is their job. It takes time. So
> doesn't explaining the smoke control system operation, the fire alarm
> operation and device placement, etc.
>
> There is no way to get out of explaining systems and designs and
> equipment
> selections to inspectors. Time needs to be factored into projects
> for this.
> Using listed equipment does NOT eliminate this time. We often had
> manufacturers make equipment for situations where listed
> equipment did not
> exist (say a busbar tap with an AIC of 200,000A at 208...) The key was
> always keeping the inspectors informed. While inspectors would
> "rather have
> a listed system" so that they do not need to rely on installers,
> we'll have
> more success increasing our own knowledge and expertise than we will in
> making "fool proof" equipment for installation by any village
> idiot :) All
> building systems are installed by personnel with a wide range of
> competence. It's sometimes a little easier in electrical, because
> there is
> so much code to lean on (unlike in the mechanical trades where
> the code is
> wide open to many implementations), but even in standard electrical
> systems, miss-installation of listed equipment happens all the time (like
> some of the inverter installs we hear about on this list!)
>
> So far as battery types, while we rarely use golf cart batteries,
> I'd love
> to understand why you do not believe they are appropriate for on-grid
> backup?
>
> BTW, great quotes...
>
> Jeff
> Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E.
> Global Resource Options, LLP
> A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership
> Trace Certified Dealer - Charter Member
> Bergey Windpower Certified Dealer
> 4 Kibling Hill Road
> P.O. Box 51
> Strafford, Vermont 05072
> 800-374-4494 Toll Free
> 802-765-4632 Phone
> 802-765-9983 Fax
> global at sover.net
> http://www.GlobalResourceOptions.com
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 17, 2001 2:47 PM, Bill Brooks
> [SMTP:billbrooks7 at earthlink.net] wrote:
> > Allan,
> >
> > Since the majority of off-grid system have not been inspected, I would
> have
> > to agree with you on keeping things cheap. However, the on-grid
> market is
> > 100% inspected and batteries are one of the most difficult parts of the
> > system to inspect properly. Inspectors would much rather have a listed
> > system that was designed by someone who knows what they are doing.
> Without
> > that, we are left with the level of expertise of the
> installer--which is
> all
> > over the map--from very competent to incompetent.
> >
> > I still feel very strongly that golf cart batteries (lead-antimony) are
> not
> > the correct battery for on-grid, backup systems. Some VRLA
> batteries are
> not
> > that great either (gels). Should we limit these systems by having
> > listings?--There are worse alternatives like dried out
> batteries and high
> > float charge requirements when batteries are not applied properly.
> >
> > I have always felt that, in the area of batteries, "A little
> learning is
> a
> > dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:"
> (That is a
> > quote by Alexander Pope from his "Essay on Criticism," written in
> 1711--hows
> > that for a classical education from an engineer.) Most off-grid folks
> > understand golf cart and L-16 batteries, but on-grid systems are very
> > different animals and we are still learning about them. I don't claim to
> > understand them yet, and I question anyone who feels they have these
> systems
> > well understood. There is testing that must be done to learn more about
> > these systems.
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> > p.s. Here is an excerpt for those that are interested. Not bad for a 23
> > year-old kid when Pope wrote this.
> >
> > AN ESSAY ON CRITICISM
> >
> > Excerpts
> >   *        *         *        *         *
> > A little learning is a dangerous thing;
> > Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
> > There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
> > And drinking largely sobers us again.
> > Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
> > In fearless youth we tempt the heights of arts,
> > While from the bounded level of our mind,
> > Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind;
> > But more advanced, behold with strange surprise
> > New distant scenes of endless science rise!
> > So pleased at first, the towering Alps we try,
> > Mount o'er the vales, and seem to tread the sky,
> > Th' eternal snows appear already pass'd,
> > And the first clouds and mountains seem the last:
> > But those attain'd, we tremble to survey
> > The growing labours of the lengthen'd way,
> > Th' increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
> > Hills peep o'er hills, and Alps on Alps arise!
> >
> > >
> >
> > - - - -
> > To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >
> > Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
> >
> > List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
> >
> > Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
> >
> > Hosted by Home Power magazine
> >
> > Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
> >
> >
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9
Or send an email To: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^================================================================