Bus Bars on batteries [RE-wrenches]

Mon Sep 17 12:50:06 PDT 2001

Hi Bill,

The on-grid market is nowhere near 100% inspected. About 90% of VT does not 
have inspections for 1 and 2 family dwellings. Most of New York (outside of 
NYC) is not inspected. I'm less familiar with the rest of the country, but 
my understanding is that rural America is generally not inspected, until 
you get into commercial buildings.

When I have dealt with battery banks in commercial / institutional 
structures, (non-PV related) we have typically needed to have a clean and 
neat installation, properly racked and ventilated. This is *generally* what 
inspectors look for in a lot of what they review, clean, neat, orderly. 
It's when they see a rats nest that they start to often dig deeper.

I know this does not address the issues where they do want more, but in my 
broad experience, when the inspectors are digging, it is for a reason, and 
they may just be using a visible touch-stone (battery installation) as a 
way to get into something else. I have never had a battery install that has 
been rejected by an inspector. I have had to discuss the install, discuss 
the NEC requirements (and large lack of requirements) for battery systems, 
and generally detail my design decisions to the inspector. This usually 
makes them feel informed and aware, which is their job. It takes time. So 
doesn't explaining the smoke control system operation, the fire alarm 
operation and device placement, etc.

There is no way to get out of explaining systems and designs and equipment 
selections to inspectors. Time needs to be factored into projects for this. 
Using listed equipment does NOT eliminate this time. We often had 
manufacturers make equipment for situations where listed equipment did not 
exist (say a busbar tap with an AIC of 200,000A at 208...) The key was 
always keeping the inspectors informed. While inspectors would "rather have 
a listed system" so that they do not need to rely on installers, we'll have 
more success increasing our own knowledge and expertise than we will in 
making "fool proof" equipment for installation by any village idiot :) All 
building systems are installed by personnel with a wide range of 
competence. It's sometimes a little easier in electrical, because there is 
so much code to lean on (unlike in the mechanical trades where the code is 
wide open to many implementations), but even in standard electrical 
systems, miss-installation of listed equipment happens all the time (like 
some of the inverter installs we hear about on this list!)

So far as battery types, while we rarely use golf cart batteries, I'd love 
to understand why you do not believe they are appropriate for on-grid 
backup?

BTW, great quotes...

Jeff
Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E.
Global Resource Options, LLP
A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership
Trace Certified Dealer - Charter Member
Bergey Windpower Certified Dealer
4 Kibling Hill Road
P.O. Box 51
Strafford, Vermont 05072
800-374-4494 Toll Free
802-765-4632 Phone
802-765-9983 Fax
global at sover.net
http://www.GlobalResourceOptions.com

On Monday, September 17, 2001 2:47 PM, Bill Brooks 
[SMTP:billbrooks7 at earthlink.net] wrote:
> Allan,
>
> Since the majority of off-grid system have not been inspected, I would 
have
> to agree with you on keeping things cheap. However, the on-grid market is
> 100% inspected and batteries are one of the most difficult parts of the
> system to inspect properly. Inspectors would much rather have a listed
> system that was designed by someone who knows what they are doing. 
Without
> that, we are left with the level of expertise of the installer--which is 
all
> over the map--from very competent to incompetent.
>
> I still feel very strongly that golf cart batteries (lead-antimony) are 
not
> the correct battery for on-grid, backup systems. Some VRLA batteries are 
not
> that great either (gels). Should we limit these systems by having
> listings?--There are worse alternatives like dried out batteries and high
> float charge requirements when batteries are not applied properly.
>
> I have always felt that, in the area of batteries, "A little learning is 
a
> dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:" (That is a
> quote by Alexander Pope from his "Essay on Criticism," written in 
1711--hows
> that for a classical education from an engineer.) Most off-grid folks
> understand golf cart and L-16 batteries, but on-grid systems are very
> different animals and we are still learning about them. I don't claim to
> understand them yet, and I question anyone who feels they have these 
systems
> well understood. There is testing that must be done to learn more about
> these systems.
>
> Bill.
>
> p.s. Here is an excerpt for those that are interested. Not bad for a 23
> year-old kid when Pope wrote this.
>
> AN ESSAY ON CRITICISM
>
> Excerpts
>   *        *         *        *         *
> A little learning is a dangerous thing;
> Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
> There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
> And drinking largely sobers us again.
> Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
> In fearless youth we tempt the heights of arts,
> While from the bounded level of our mind,
> Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind;
> But more advanced, behold with strange surprise
> New distant scenes of endless science rise!
> So pleased at first, the towering Alps we try,
> Mount o'er the vales, and seem to tread the sky,
> Th' eternal snows appear already pass'd,
> And the first clouds and mountains seem the last:
> But those attain'd, we tremble to survey
> The growing labours of the lengthen'd way,
> Th' increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
> Hills peep o'er hills, and Alps on Alps arise!
>
> >
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> 

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9
Or send an email To: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^================================================================