*&^% Subsidies (was Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California) [RE

Sun May 13 16:30:52 PDT 2001

Inspectors typically don't know diddly about much of anything. They go on 
looks and on past jobs. Really. There are a few who are better, but having 
completed about 4,000,000 SF of building design and review through the 
permitting and inspection offices in Chicago, Boston, Burlington and other 
major and minor areas, inspectors that are doing residential level stuff 
and a lot that are doing larger stuff) will only catch the stuff that slaps 
them in the face.

Many time I have had to go in a meet with an inspector to explain how an 
installation or design DOES meet code, because it was different than what 
they were used to seeing.

So PV isn't special in the lack of knowledge. Inspectors know what they've 
seen before. Eventually PV will be in this category.

Jeff

Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E.
Global Resource Options, LLP
A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership
4 Kibling Hill Road
P.O. Box 51
Strafford, VT 05072
802/765-4632
802/765-9983 (Fax)
global at sover.net
http://www.globalresourceoptions.com

----------
From: 	Jerry Caldwell[SMTP:solarcowboy at yahoo.com]
Reply To: 	RE-wrenches at topica.com
Sent: 	Sunday, May 13, 2001 5:42 PM
To: 	RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: 	Re: *&^% Subsidies (was Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in 
 California)  [RE

The thoroughness of the inspection depends on the
individual conducting the inspection.  Often times the
inspectors don't know diddly about pv and consequently
don't know what to look for in terms of design flaws.
They often seem to be a bit overwhelmed by the
unfamiliar equipment and ask to be educated on how the
systems works.

Jerry
--- Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy
<solar at eagle-access.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >I don't want to invite the quick & dirty fly by
> >nighters to come give our industry a bad rep.  It's
> >allready happened once with the solar hot water
> >industry.
>
>
> I live in Colorado, not California, so I don't know
> how good a job your
> inspectors do.  But here, quick and dirt jobs don't
> pass inspections very
> often.   Don't the installations have to be
> inspected before a grid
> connection can be made?
>
> Drake
>
>
> At 12:00 PM 05/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >Joel,
> >
> >You have some good points, but Allan's accounts
> can't
> >be ignored.  I recently had to reroute some conduit
> &
> >wiring of an EV charger installed by a local
> >contractor, in order to make way for our
> installation.
> >  Upon opening one of their J-boxes I found a wire
> nut
> >melted  apart and wires with their insulation
> melting
> >away.  The appearance of their conduit run and
> >installation as a whole was shoddy.
> >
> >I don't want to invite the quick & dirty fly by
> >nighters to come give our industry a bad rep.  It's
> >allready happened once with the solar hot water
> >industry.
> >
> >Jerry Caldwell
> >Light Energy Systems
> >
> >--- "Allan Sindelar, Positive Energy, Inc."
> ><allan at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:
> > > > I welcome the new people flooding the
> industry.
> > > Evolution works.
> > >
> > > Warning: Rant: ON:
> > > Joel,
> > >     On this one I think you're way off the mark.
> In
> > > New Mexico we see poorly
> > > installed systems on a regular basis. There's
> > > nothing we can do to stop bad
> > > installers, whether they're licensed or not.
> Most
> > > people shop price. Thank
> > > God our reputation for quality is growing, as we
> > > refuse to waste our time
> > > competing on price. We're getting more and more
> who
> > > appreciate our quality.
> > > We're way more expensive than some "installers"
> > > around here anyway.
> > >
> > >     This is a technical field being sold to the
> > > average Joe Sixpak who
> > > hasn't a clue how to evaluate the installation.
> I
> > > don't like being the
> > > technician called in two years later on a system
> > > that can't keep up with
> > > what was promised, and have to find delicate
> ways of
> > > saying to the owner
> > > that he was sold an expensive bill of goods
> because
> > > of third-rate
> > > installation..."Oh, and by the way, I'll spend
> the
> > > time with you to analyze
> > > your phantom loads, multiwire branch circuits,
> > > multiple code violations,
> > > etc., at $60/hour including travel time, but I
> won't
> > > correct them for you
> > > unless we completely rebuild your system to our
> > > standards and get it
> > > inspected. It'll cost about $4-5K for us to do
> that,
> > > top-of-the-head.
> > > Otherwise, sir, we won't take on the liability
> of
> > > touching your system"...
> > >
> > >     Joel, this isn't theoretical. I'm describing
> a
> > > situation that really
> > > happened 3 weeks ago, a referral to a friend of
> one
> > > of our clients. And I
> > > was returning from a job we had just rebuilt, to
> the
> > > tune of $15K including
> > > new Surrettes, inverter and voltage upgrade to
> 24V,
> > > for another client of
> > > the same "installer" (I'm close to naming names
> > > here--it's a well-known Taos
> > > dealer).
> > >
> > >     Locally we've got a licensed electrical
> > > contractor who's been doing PV
> > > around here for years who we rant about for
> shoddy
> > > and unsafe work. We have
> > > twice corrected parallel ground paths on AC
> > > generators he's wired in. We see
> > > the same consistent mistakes when we see his
> work on
> > > service calls. He's
> > > very threatened by us, but what do we do? We
> correct
> > > what we can, turn some
> > > of these calls down, try to stay above it, but
> no
> > > customer wants to pay
> > > twice for work, especially when they didn't know
> > > that what they had was
> > > unsafe or just didn't work like it could.
> > >
> > > >Bad installations by licensed or unlicensed
> > > contractors
> > > > that are either bootlegged or permitted, can
> be
> > > indentified and dealt with
> > > in
> > > > various ways.
> > >  I'd like to hear your ideas how this can be
> done.
> > >
> > >     California looks like a nightmare waiting to
> > > happen, especially if
> > > subsidies start bringing every fast-buck solar
> > > salesman in because it's
> > > easier than used cars or mutual funds. There are
> > > nowhere near enough
> > > skilled, experienced installers to handle the
> demand
> > > with daily rolling
> > > blackouts. You will see a lot of poor work or I
> owe
> > > you a bunch of brews.
> > >
> > >     Answers: I dunno. Independent, third-party
> > > evaluation of each system
> > > before rebates, without industry kickbacks.
> > > Subsidies that increase in
> > > percentage each year, then diminish to 0 or 10
> or
> > > 15%, so no upheavals like
> > > the last round. IPP or somebody's certification.
> > > Some sort of structure to
> > > review poor work so quick buckers are sent
> packing.
> > >
> > >     And manufacturers can design grid-tie
> systems
> > > for installers, but not
> > > standalone systems.
> > >
> > > Rant: OFF
> > >
> > > Allan at Positive Energy
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joel Davidson"
> <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
> > > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:03 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates
> in
> > > California [RE-wrenches]
> > >
> > >
> > > > Of course, we are concerned about quality and
> > > sleeze bags. Our concern is
> > > a
> > > > continuing thread in almost all conversations
> > > among PV professionals. One
> > > reason
> > > > solar thermal got out of hand is poor
> policing. I
> > > believe that when a
> > > > responsible person sees bad design,
> installation,
> > > equipment, business
>
=== message truncated ===

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