[RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit
Christopher Warfel
cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
Tue Aug 31 11:53:10 EDT 2021
People need to contact me off list, and I will set up a process. I am
going to follow Brian's information as it is a great road map for this
to be effective. I would like to budget one week from today for
interested parties to contact me so we can get this going. Chris
On 8/31/2021 10:08 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> That is a great offer. For the sake of our industry I hope it
> succeeds. What is the next step? Please keep us in the loop.
>
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
> Athens Electric LLC
>
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
>
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>
>
>
> ---
>>
>> I would like to suggest that interested WRENCHES form their own
>> "subcommittee" so that we can have an somewhat organized approach to
>> this issue. I do know Fronius has been working on this, and we
>> should seek them out. I will volunteer to help organize the
>> subcommittee. I have done similar work on other issues. I think
>> this will have to be done by email so I will set up a process if
>> there is interest. Chris
>>
>> On 8/30/2021 2:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
>>> The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details:
>>> https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works
>>> <https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works>
>>>
>>> A few things to note:
>>> All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code
>>> Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this
>>> documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed
>>> on the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here:
>>> https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition
>>> <https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition>
>>> The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on
>>> 6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and
>>> the second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product
>>> of that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the
>>> most part, the 2023 NEC.
>>> Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on
>>> the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so
>>> many acronyms), which you can read about here
>>> https://www.nfpa.org/techsession
>>> <https://www.nfpa.org/techsession> and which I'm not very familiar with.
>>> Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on,
>>> and which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other
>>> Articles) is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement
>>> (AHJ) community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade
>>> organizations, utility organizations, the fire fighting/first
>>> responder community, and solar-specific organizations. Folks have
>>> widely varying degrees of interest in – and experience with – PV,
>>> but they all bring technical expertise from across the electrical
>>> industry. You may be surprised to hear it, but requirements in
>>> regards to RS could have been a lot more stringent, a lot more
>>> quickly, without key representation from the panel members that are
>>> most dedicated to the solar industry. Furthermore this is a
>>> consensus process, and is often the case rarely does anyone get
>>> exactly what they want.
>>> Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the
>>> PV Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something
>>> like 60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and
>>> submit consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest
>>> cycle we submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were
>>> accepted and became part of the first draft. This process is key to
>>> jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to
>>> address, the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code.
>>> And of course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other
>>> organizations that are addressed by the panel.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Brian Mehalic
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>>> (520) 204-6639
>>> Solar Energy International
>>> http://www.solarenergy.org <http://www.solarenergy.org>
>>> SEI Professional Services
>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel
>>> <cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
>>> <mailto:cwarfel at entech-engineering.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Brian, I think you serve on a CMP. (if not, anyone with
>>> knowledge on the process would be helpful.) What is the process
>>> for receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members?
>>> Every time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far
>>> as I can remember). Thank you, Chris
>>>
>>> On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
>>>> Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it's just a forum to
>>>> complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the
>>>> NEC® via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there
>>>> are a few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call
>>>> to action to fix module level shutdown by...having module level
>>>> shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to
>>>> come down to connector standardization (which obviously was not
>>>> the issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread).
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM,
>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org
>>>>> <mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd
>>>>> <https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd>
>>>>>
>>>>> FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than
>>>>> safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard
>>>>> string configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD
>>>>> devices, it seems likely that this is true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Drake
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Drake Chamberlin
>>>>>
>>>>> Athens Electric LLC
>>>>>
>>>>> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810
>>>>>
>>>>> CO Master Electrician's License 4526
>>>>>
>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would once again say that; we as an industry can
>>>>> influence not only the writing of the code but with what
>>>>> we are /buying/ OR /not buying./
>>>>> If the devices we are required to install to make things
>>>>> "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods &
>>>>> reputations, we all need to make the folks that are
>>>>> building the RSD crap and those who require installation
>>>>> of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems.
>>>>> WE can thru either going to the code development meetings
>>>>> AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when
>>>>> a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the
>>>>> installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch
>>>>> were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift
>>>>> required.
>>>>> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let
>>>>> your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has
>>>>> good reliable products AND tech support that we can
>>>>> understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get
>>>>> the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don't
>>>>> sell it they won't have a job or a market.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon
>>>>> <jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com
>>>>> <mailto:jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that
>>>>> failure?
>>>>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least
>>>>> try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really
>>>>> really steep and their distribution channels are less
>>>>> than ideal. Their response to a request for
>>>>> compensation was that they would not be profitable if
>>>>> they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost
>>>>> item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been
>>>>> in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could
>>>>> easily have ended that run.
>>>>> I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP
>>>>> that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a
>>>>> reliability engineering background in petro chemical/
>>>>> big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be
>>>>> catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every
>>>>> 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered
>>>>> secondary systems and multiple quality checks to
>>>>> contain catastrophic consequences for components that
>>>>> had know failure rates higher than acceptable values.
>>>>> A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would
>>>>> be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That
>>>>> still doesn't really solve the problem of extra
>>>>> connections though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
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>>> --
>>> Christopher Warfel
>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
>>> 401-466-8978
>>> <http://entech-engineering.com>
>>>
>>>
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>> --
>> Christopher Warfel
>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
>> 401-466-8978
>> <http://entech-engineering.com>
>>
>>
>>
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--
Christopher Warfel
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978
<http://entech-engineering.com>
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