[RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit
Christopher Warfel
cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
Tue Aug 31 08:03:09 EDT 2021
I would like to suggest that interested WRENCHES form their own
"subcommittee" so that we can have an somewhat organized approach to
this issue. I do know Fronius has been working on this, and we should
seek them out. I will volunteer to help organize the subcommittee. I
have done similar work on other issues. I think this will have to be
done by email so I will set up a process if there is interest. Chris
On 8/30/2021 2:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
> The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details:
> https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works
> <https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works>
>
>
> A few things to note:
>
> All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code
> Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this
> documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed on
> the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here:
> https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition
> <https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition>
>
> The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on
> 6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and the
> second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product of
> that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the most
> part, the 2023 NEC.
>
> Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on
> the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so many
> acronyms), which you can read about here
> https://www.nfpa.org/techsession
> <https://www.nfpa.org/techsession> and which I'm not very familiar with.
>
> Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on, and
> which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other Articles)
> is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement (AHJ)
> community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade organizations,
> utility organizations, the fire fighting/first responder community,
> and solar-specific organizations. Folks have widely varying degrees of
> interest in – and experience with – PV, but they all bring technical
> expertise from across the electrical industry. You may be surprised to
> hear it, but requirements in regards to RS could have been a lot more
> stringent, a lot more quickly, without key representation from the
> panel members that are most dedicated to the solar industry.
> Furthermore this is a consensus process, and is often the case rarely
> does anyone get exactly what they want.
>
> Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the PV
> Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something like
> 60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and submit
> consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest cycle we
> submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were accepted
> and became part of the first draft. This process is key to
> jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to address,
> the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code. And of
> course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other
> organizations that are addressed by the panel.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org <http://www.solarenergy.org>
>
> SEI Professional Services
> http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel
> <cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
> <mailto:cwarfel at entech-engineering.com>> wrote:
>
> Brian, I think you serve on a CMP. (if not, anyone with knowledge
> on the process would be helpful.) What is the process for
> receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members? Every
> time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far as I can
> remember). Thank you, Chris
>
> On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
>> Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to
>> complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC®
>> via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a
>> few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to
>> action to fix module level shutdown by…having module level
>> shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to come
>> down to connector standardization (which obviously was not the
>> issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread).
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>> On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM,
>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org
>>> <mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown.
>>>
>>> https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd
>>> <https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd>
>>>
>>> FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than
>>> safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard string
>>> configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it
>>> seems likely that this is true.
>>>
>>> Drake
>>>
>>>
>>> Drake Chamberlin
>>>
>>> Athens Electric LLC
>>>
>>> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
>>>
>>> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
>>>
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence
>>>> not only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/
>>>> OR /not buying./
>>>> If the devices we are required to install to make things "more
>>>> safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations,
>>>> we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap
>>>> and those who require installation of questionably safe &
>>>> reliable crap aware of these problems.
>>>> WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND
>>>> NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge
>>>> amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers
>>>> in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing
>>>> this stuff on, short season & man lift required.
>>>> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your
>>>> supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable
>>>> products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can
>>>> get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt
>>>> replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a
>>>> market.
>>>>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon
>>>>> <jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com
>>>>> <mailto:jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure?
>>>>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be
>>>>> helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and
>>>>> their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their
>>>>> response to a request for compensation was that they would not
>>>>> be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a
>>>>> low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been
>>>>> in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily
>>>>> have ended that run.
>>>>> I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that
>>>>> their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability
>>>>> engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a
>>>>> 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that
>>>>> 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We
>>>>> engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to
>>>>> contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know
>>>>> failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple
>>>>> solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal
>>>>> enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't
>>>>> really solve the problem of extra connections though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
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> --
> Christopher Warfel
> ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
> 401-466-8978
> <http://entech-engineering.com>
>
>
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Christopher Warfel
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
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