[RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown

Sat Feb 6 23:38:54 EST 2021

Dear Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man:

I read this email below several times and looked carefully through all of
the photographs.  I could not let this message go without comment.  See
below:

The pictures make exactly the case you are arguing against.  Extinguishing
this fire in the daytime without MLSD would be much more dangerous than
with MLSD.

Your logic that you don’t like squirrel guards also makes no sense because
squirrel guards, if installed properly, would have prevented this event
absolutely.

Furthermore, I don’t accept the argument that roofs can be dangerous so
let’s not bother doing anything to try and make them a bit less dangerous.

What also makes no sense is the adoption of MLSD requirements is some kind
of conspiracy.  You offer that as a rumor without any evidence to the
contrary.  Letting that go without comment serves to infer that some of us
on this forum might agree with the assertion.  That is how conspiracy
theories thrive.  I need facts, not conjecture.  I imagine others here
might agree.

Seatbelts are a hassle.  Fall protection harnesses are a hassle.  Safety
procedures in general are a hassle.  That is no reason to blow them off.  I
try to adapt and get proficient at the procedures so they are a bit less of
a hassle and then enjoy the reduction in workplace hazards that those
procedures provide.

All in all, the entire logic you present makes no sense.  No disrespect
intended.

Most Sincerely,

William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985

*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Solar Energy Solutions
*Sent:* Thursday, February 4, 2021 11:49 AM
*To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown

Dear All,

I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being
able to comment further.

Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do
with firefighter safety.  If being on dangerous roofs was really a concern,
steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and snow on
roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs.  I can only
guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised this
whole firefighter safety thing.  It is also my understanding none of the
string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where MLSD
was determined and you can guess who was.    But much of this is only rumor
and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo.

I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD.  I loved string inverters
and hated to see them go.  So far as I can tell the US is the only place on
planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal.  This said... a
picture is worth a thousand words.  All of the attached photos of systems
had the wire management done very well.  If you look at the metal roof
photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc.  I have many more photos
of different squirrel damaged systems.  Ground Fault protection has saved
the inverters, but not the roofs.

I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards.  It seems like I may be
creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine.  Debris
build up could be an issue.  Rainwater could back up from a damn and get
under shingles and into the cavity of the house.  For me the easiest thing
that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the
wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better
food source.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0

Fire 2.JPG <https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksd5yhfsammybdz/Fire%202.JPG?dl=0>

[image: Text Box:]

Fire 2.JPG

Shared with Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0

Fire 3.JPG <https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtehaht4rlcrco7/Fire%203.JPG?dl=0>

[image: Text Box:]

Fire 3.JPG

Shared with Dropbox

Fire 4.JPG <https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjm01bkquds1b31/Fire%204.JPG?dl=0>

[image: Text Box:]

Fire 4.JPG

Shared with Dropbox

Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv6f7je8asgx3ih/Fire%205%20%20Voltair%20the%20culprit.jpg?dl=0>

[image: Text Box:]

Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg

Shared with Dropbox

Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4fryj0hleusphd/Metal%20Roof%20Squirrel%20damage.JPG?dl=0>

[image: Text Box:]

Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG

Shared with Dropbox

Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bnrgmqzkryu3w5/Shadow%20of%20scorched%20squirrel%20on%20metal%20roof.JPG?dl=0>

[image: Text Box:]

Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG

Shared with Dropbox

*Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*

*President*

*Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE*

*Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighborsmove towards an
environmentally sustainable future.*

*503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com <http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/> *

On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray <ray at solarray.com> wrote:

I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor
cables to run unprotected? outdoors?  All because the module manus and
industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of
electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff
BTW).   If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years
ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would
be much less reason for MLSD.

I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick
connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module.

[image: Teck 90 Armoured Power & Control Cable 600V CSA FT4 HL ...][image:
Llt M10 Bayonet Lock Molding Waterproof Cable 2 Pole ...]

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote:

There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years.

In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of
modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install
conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient
pigtails.

 However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from
the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays
and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire
hanging in the open.

I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity
market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by
making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for
some kind of conduit starting at the J box.

I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to
improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams.

Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it?

Maybe I’m just being naive.

Hilton

Hilton Dier III

Renewable Energy Design

Missisquoi River Hydro LLC

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