[RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?
Mark Frye
markf at berkeleysolar.com
Tue May 26 12:46:26 EDT 2020
Humm...suppose I wanted for myself some lead calcium flooded batteries,
about 100 AH at 48 V, anyone have an idea of a good vendor?
On 5/26/2020 3:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> I would use Concorde VRLA batteries. They can take a very fast charge.
> In certain conditions they can charge at C X 5 instead of C/5.
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
> On 2020-05-25 18:13, Jay wrote:
>
>> You might check out discover batteries.
>> I'm a big fan of companies they make their equipment, they do, one of
>> the very few in the lithium world.
>> And while the original question specifically asked about Lithium,
>> what you're requiring is perfectly suited for VRLA float service
>> batteries.
>> Long life, much lower cost.
>> Jay
>> Peltz power.
>>
>>> On May 25, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> <offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jay knows about these and I won't name them just because I use
>>> them. They are the perfect size for most offgrid and scalable.
>>>
>>> I have a client in Texas who left them for 14 months off, and maybe
>>> they lost 1%. The best part of them for me, is all a client has to
>>> do is enter the date in the system control panel and all of the rest
>>> is done. True plug and play. Built by a company that has made
>>> locomotive batteries for decades. I asked them Jay on linkedin. He
>>> said do what you want with Soc. Don't worry about any of that. Just
>>> know that we have you covered. Below is from their latest webinar.
>>>
>>> For a solar installation to pass final inspection, the batteries
>>> must have been tested and approved to UL 1973. Not just the cell but
>>> the battery. So, before making a final selection, verify that the
>>> battery selection you make has you covered. These LiFePO_4
>>> batteries meet this certification, so you can be confident that
>>> your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection. Our
>>> commitment to safety, reliability and certification also delivers
>>> the following.
>>>
>>> * Safe and Maintenance Free
>>> * Sophisticated High Current BMS
>>> * Field Serviceable BMS
>>> * IP 55 Rated
>>> * IEC 62133 Safety
>>> * UL 1973 Safety Certified
>>> * UN 38.3 Transport Certified
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net
>>> <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>> On Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700, Jerry Shafer
>>> <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It may take a little bit as it wrapped up just over 2 years ago,
>>> most of the research stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not
>>> survive the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99% dod.
>>> There is no substitute for a multi-level battery management
>>> structure when it comes to Li tech. I have priced simplify dirt
>>> to keys and it cost more then Blue did and required more space.
>>> There was another one that came in near the end and was built in
>>> what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical storage cabinet just to
>>> make it fire rated, maybe it's just me but batteries that can
>>> catch fire may not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like
>>> that. Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the very
>>> fine print that talks about "what to do in case of" and that can
>>> be a deciding factor right there.
>>> Way back when all FLA's had to be in a pan to catch the acid
>>> before it did damage, that was 20 years ago by now it should be
>>> safer not more dangerous.
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 8:36 PM jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> HI Jerry,
>>> Most impressive.
>>> Would you be willing to tell us which ones didn't meet this
>>> test, if not publicly, then off list?
>>> thanks
>>> jay
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry Shafer
>>> <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Wrenches
>>> Again not all batteries are the same, Chemistry,
>>> recharge rate or intelligence of the BMS, l have
>>> personally tested Blue planet batteries, l have let them
>>> sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran them at 30% SOC for 6
>>> months, l have performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4
>>> times a day. This is the same tests l ran on a variety
>>> of Li tech batteries and BluePlanet is the only one that
>>> survived this testing. It's ore then spec sheets and
>>> cost, it comes down to success or failure, personally l
>>> like success and being able to pass or fail batteries
>>> without having my customers pay the price is a good
>>> thing. Blue Planet has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year
>>> warranty at 70% compare that to anything out there but
>>> again that's just me.
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl Thayer
>>> <darylsolar1 at gmail.com <mailto:darylsolar1 at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have spoken with a li battery
>>> researcher. Do not charge over 85% of battery full
>>> charge voltage and they will last over 25 years.
>>> But go above or below bottom and trouble
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay
>>> <jay.peltz at gmail.com <mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> One question I have for those more versed than
>>> me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that
>>> having a lithium battery in float for years
>>> isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has
>>> to be cycled with some regularity.
>>> I'd like to hear data on that
>>> Thx
>>> Jay
>>> Peltz power.
>>>
>>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray
>>> <ray at solarray.com <mailto:ray at solarray.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I suggest starting with a very simple look
>>> at the continuous output rating of the
>>> battery and match that to the inverter
>>> continuous rating. This ends up with quite a
>>> bit more battery than you might think at
>>> first. However, if the customer paid the big
>>> bucks for a battery backup system, they
>>> should at least get enough battery to
>>> operate the inverter at its rated power.
>>> Anything less, I would consider poor design.
>>> The same goes for lead acid batteries, they
>>> just don't work well, even on grid, when the
>>> battery is undersized. Even lead acid
>>> batteries have maximum current output
>>> ratings that should at least be matched to
>>> the inverter rating.
>>>
>>> If you WERE going to under size the battery,
>>> then you should keep it safe by reducing the
>>> size of the inverter battery breaker as
>>> well. I know this "micro battery for GTB"
>>> is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its
>>> right.
>>>
>>> Ray Walters
>>> Remote Solar
>>> 303 505-8760
>>>
>>> On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
>>>
>>> Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked:
>>> "...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC
>>> coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the
>>> smallest Li battery I would want for
>>> stable operation?"
>>> Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one
>>> often finds the ratings in
>>> kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours.
>>> This is an easy conversion for us energy
>>> nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using
>>> watts & watt-hours with occasional
>>> conversions to amp-hours.
>>> I suggest that you start with the spec
>>> sheet (of whichever brand lithium
>>> battery is on your radar), & see what
>>> the manufacturer says about "allowable
>>> rate of recharge". You may find that C/2
>>> is an acceptable rate with several
>>> manufacturers, Mark--much faster than
>>> what we're accustomed to with typical
>>> lead-acid batteries. Let's assume:
>>> * ...that your AC coupled PV array
>>> crests around 1800 watts to the battery
>>> when there are no loads
>>> * ...that the battery is below 100%
>>> state of charge, and
>>> * ...that the solar conditions are optimal.
>>> Let's further assume that
>>> those conditions represent your
>>> battery's highest energy rate in either
>>> direction.
>>> 1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours
>>> dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours
>>> in the above hypothetical situation.
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> The rate at which a battery can receive
>>> energy is (usually) also the rate at
>>> which it can comfortably deplete, so
>>> let's briefly look at the flip side:
>>> Assuming the battery mfr. wants the
>>> watt-hours to be no less than two times
>>> the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour
>>> (C/2) battery should not be depleted
>>> faster than 1800 watts. Your 4kW Radian,
>>> Mark, could exceed that if the loads
>>> demand it--& maybe your loads don't.
>>> Motor starting surges should probably be
>>> part of the thinking & it wouldn't hurt
>>> to ask the mfr.'s opinion about short
>>> term surges which briefly deplete the
>>> battery faster than the hypothetical two
>>> hour rate.
>>> By approaching this question based on
>>> the battery manufacturer do's & don'ts,
>>> one improves the chance of getting
>>> warranty coverage should it later be
>>> needed. "What the large print giveth,
>>> the fine print taketh away."
>>> The Wrench List is the Bomb!
>>>
>>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
>>> www.abrahamsolar.com
>>> <http://www.abrahamsolar.com/>
>>>
>>> Landline: 970-731-4675
>>> Cell phone or for text messaging:
>>> 970-946-6584
>>> ᐧ
>>>
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