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<p>Humm...suppose I wanted for myself some lead calcium flooded
batteries, about 100 AH at 48 V, anyone have an idea of a good
vendor?<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/26/2020 3:12 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a74861a8b7fcb1a0baee7b611fc8ba95@redwoodalliance.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>I would use Concorde VRLA batteries. They can take a very fast
charge. In certain conditions they can charge at C X 5 instead
of C/5. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div id="signature">---<br>
<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family:
monospace"> </div>
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<p><br>
</p>
<p id="reply-intro">On 2020-05-25 18:13, Jay wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left:
#1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">
<div id="replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">You might check out discover batteries. </div>
<div dir="ltr">I'm a big fan of companies they make their
equipment, they do, one of the very few in the lithium
world. </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">And while the original question specifically
asked about Lithium, what you're requiring is perfectly
suited for VRLA float service batteries. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Long life, much lower cost. </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Jay</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Peltz power. </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em;
border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">On May 25,
2020, at 2:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net"><offgridsolar@sti.net></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em;
border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>Jay knows about these and I won't name them just
because I use them. They are the perfect size for
most offgrid and scalable.</p>
<p>I have a client in Texas who left them for 14 months
off, and maybe they lost 1%. The best part of them for
me, is all a client has to do is enter the date in the
system control panel and all of the rest is done. True
plug and play. Built by a company that has made
locomotive batteries for decades. I asked them Jay on
linkedin. He said do what you want with Soc. Don't
worry about any of that. Just know that we have you
covered. Below is from their latest webinar.</p>
<p>For a solar installation to pass final inspection,
the batteries must have been tested and approved to UL
1973. Not just the cell but the battery. So, before
making a final selection, verify that the battery
selection you make has you covered. These LiFePO<sub>4</sub> batteries
meet this certification, so you can be confident that
your customers batteries are safe and pass inspection.
Our commitment to safety, reliability and
certification also delivers the following.</p>
<ul>
<li>Safe and Maintenance Free</li>
<li>Sophisticated High Current BMS</li>
<li>Field Serviceable BMS</li>
<li>IP 55 Rated</li>
<li>IEC 62133 Safety</li>
<li>UL 1973 Safety Certified</li>
<li>UN 38.3 Transport Certified</li>
</ul>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p>On Sun, 24 May 2020 21:05:06 -0700, Jerry Shafer
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com"><jerrysgarage01@gmail.com></a> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; border-left:
#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;">
<div dir="auto">It may take a little bit as it wrapped
up just over 2 years ago, most of the research
stayed at the lab. I do recall V2 did not survive
the cycling test, it was unable to restart from 99%
dod. There is no substitute for a multi-level
battery management structure when it comes to Li
tech. I have priced simplify dirt to keys and it
cost more then Blue did and required more space.
There was another one that came in near the end and
was built in what appeared to be a 66" tall chemical
storage cabinet just to make it fire rated, maybe
it's just me but batteries that can catch fire may
not be the best choice but hey I'm funny like that.
Anyone installing any batteries needs to read the
very fine print that talks about "what to do in case
of" and that can be a deciding factor right there.
<div dir="auto">Way back when all FLA's had to be in
a pan to catch the acid before it did damage, that
was 20 years ago by now it should be safer not
more dangerous.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="v1gmail_quote">
<div class="v1gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sun, May 24,
2020, 8:36 PM jay <<a
href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="v1gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0
0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left:
1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; line-break:
after-white-space;">HI Jerry,
<div> </div>
<div>Most impressive.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Would you be willing to tell us which ones
didn't meet this test, if not publicly, then
off list?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>thanks</div>
<div> </div>
<div>jay</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px;
border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;
margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;">
<div>On May 24, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Jerry
Shafer <<a
href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="auto">Wrenches
<div dir="auto">Again not all
batteries are the same, Chemistry,
recharge rate or intelligence of the
BMS, l have personally tested Blue
planet batteries, l have let them
sit at 100% SOC for 10 weeks, ran
them at 30% SOC for 6 months, l have
performed 100% to 0% cycling up to 4
times a day. This is the same tests
l ran on a variety of Li tech
batteries and BluePlanet is the only
one that survived this testing. It's
ore then spec sheets and cost, it
comes down to success or failure,
personally l like success and being
able to pass or fail batteries
without having my customers pay the
price is a good thing. Blue Planet
has 8000 cycles life and a 15 year
warranty at 70% compare that to
anything out there but again that's
just me.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="v1gmail_quote">
<div class="v1gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On
Sun, May 24, 2020, 1:32 PM Darryl
Thayer <<a
href="mailto:darylsolar1@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">darylsolar1@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="v1gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex;
border-left: 1px #ccc solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="auto">I have spoken with a
li battery
<div dir="auto">researcher. Do not
charge over 85% of battery full
charge voltage and they will
last over 25 years. But go
above or below bottom and
trouble</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="v1gmail_quote">
<div class="v1gmail_attr"
dir="ltr">On Sun, May 24, 2020,
10:27 AM Jay <<a
href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="v1gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex;
border-left: 1px #ccc solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">One question I
have for those more versed
than me in lithium is, I'm
under the impression that
having a lithium battery in
float for years isn't good
for it. Or at the very least
it has to be cycled with
some regularity. </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">I'd like to
hear data on that</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Thx</div>
<div dir="ltr">Jay</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Peltz power. </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote
style="padding-left: 5px;
border-left: #1010ff 2px
solid; margin-left: 5px;
width: 100%;">On May 23,
2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray
<<a
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">ray@solarray.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="padding-left: 5px;
border-left: #1010ff 2px
solid; margin-left: 5px;
width: 100%;">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>I suggest starting with
a very simple look at
the continuous output
rating of the battery
and match that to the
inverter continuous
rating. This ends up
with quite a bit more
battery than you might
think at first.
However, if the customer
paid the big bucks for a
battery backup system,
they should at least get
enough battery to
operate the inverter at
its rated power.
Anything less, I would
consider poor design.
The same goes for lead
acid batteries, they
just don't work well,
even on grid, when the
battery is undersized.
Even lead acid batteries
have maximum current
output ratings that
should at least be
matched to the inverter
rating. </p>
<p>If you WERE going to
under size the battery,
then you should keep it
safe by reducing the
size of the inverter
battery breaker as
well. I know this
"micro battery for GTB"
is becoming a trend, but
it doesn't mean its
right.</p>
<pre>Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>On 5/23/20 5:48 PM,
Mick Abraham wrote:</div>
<blockquote
style="padding-left:
5px; border-left:
#1010ff 2px solid;
margin-left: 5px; width:
100%;">
<div dir="ltr">Greetings,
All~ Mark Frye had
asked: "...with a
4000w Outback Radian,
AC coupled with 2000w
of PV, what is the
smallest Li battery I
would want for stable
operation?"
<div> </div>
<div>Mick's reply: In
the lithium arena,
one often finds the
ratings in
kilowatt-hours
rather than in
amp-hours. This is
an easy conversion
for us energy nerds
to make, so below
I'm mainly using
watts &
watt-hours with
occasional
conversions to
amp-hours.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I suggest that
you start with the
spec sheet (of
whichever brand
lithium battery is
on your radar),
& see what the
manufacturer says
about "allowable
rate of recharge".
You may find that
C/2 is an acceptable
rate with several
manufacturers,
Mark--much faster
than what we're
accustomed to with
typical lead-acid
batteries. Let's
assume:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>* ...that your AC
coupled PV array
crests around 1800
watts to the battery
when there are no
loads</div>
<div>* ...that the
battery is below
100% state of
charge, and</div>
<div>* ...that the
solar conditions are
optimal. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Let's further
assume that
those conditions
represent your
battery's highest
energy rate in
either direction. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>1800w X two hours
= 3,600 watt-hours
dividing by 48v
nominal = 75
amp-hours in the
above
hypothetical situation. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The rate at which
a battery can
receive energy is
(usually) also the
rate at which it can
comfortably
deplete, so let's
briefly look at the
flip side: Assuming
the battery mfr.
wants the watt-hours
to be no less than
two times the
maximum wattage, a
3600 watt-hour (C/2)
battery should not
be depleted faster
than 1800 watts.
Your 4kW Radian,
Mark, could exceed
that if the loads
demand it--&
maybe your loads
don't. Motor
starting surges
should probably be
part of the thinking
& it wouldn't
hurt to ask the
mfr.'s opinion about
short term surges
which briefly
deplete the battery
faster than the
hypothetical two
hour rate.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>By approaching
this question based
on the battery
manufacturer
do's & don'ts,
one improves the
chance of getting
warranty coverage
should it later be
needed. "What the
large print giveth,
the fine print
taketh away." </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The Wrench List
is the Bomb! </div>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Mick
Abraham,
Proprietor<br>
<a
href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com/"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br>
<br>
Landline:
970-731-4675</div>
<div>Cell
phone or for
text
messaging:
970-946-6584</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="max-height:
1px;"><img
style="width: 0px;
max-height: 0px;
overflow: hidden;"
src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/program/blocked.gif"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color: #ffffff; font-size:
xx-small;">\u1427</span></div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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