[RE-wrenches] Generator surging

Thu Mar 19 17:14:00 EDT 2020

Rains came…. is the Gen shed away from the inverter/batteries/home?  Water in conduit?  You made sure that the generator natural was not bonded as the tend to be? To jays question; surging changes as the charge rate goes down?  Have you removed the air cleaner from the gen set and run it that way, under a load? I have seen water vapor freezing in the air filter causing surging I have also seen the rubber hose from AC to engine collapse under a load then when the load goes away no more surge and under the load up surges again and so on. 
> On Mar 19, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi William
> 
> 3 questions
> 
> Did this system used to work?
> 
> 
> The surging is happening even with no loads, just battery charging?
> 
> Lastly, did you find a charging/ ac amp size that stopped the surging? With 30 amps it’s still charging  full rate, if you set it down further does it stop?
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz Power. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 19, 2020, at 12:20 AM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com <mailto:william at millersolar.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Mac:
>>  
>> I know well what the AC input mode is.  This is the project that had the excessive THD on the voltage waveform (>26%f).  Here is a link <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html> to the case study.
>>  
>> As you can see, we resolved the problem by changing the AC input mode to Backup.  After recent rains started and generator run became necessary, the client started noticing flickering of lights and refrigerator operation was unreliable. We examined the E-Gauge data and could see rapid fluctuations in the generator output.  At one point we saw generator power range from 19kW to 12Kw and back in about 2 seconds.
>>  
>> We isolated the generator into a load bank and it was rock solid.  We tried lots of things but when we reconnected the generator to the Radians and switched to the Radians to Generator input mode the surging stopped.  Unfortunately, the Generator mode causes tons of THD, as noted in the case study.
>>  
>> So we can’t use Generator because of THD, and we can’t use Backup (or Support or UPS) because in all these modes the generator surges.
>>  
>> By the way, this is a newish Kohler 30RCL.  This should be a rock-solid match to a 24 kW Radian system.
>>  
>> Like I said, we tried lots of things.  What stopped the surging was to open the AC input breaker to Inverter 1.  It did not help to open the input to Inverters 2 or 3.  I don’t have a clue as to why this is so…
>>  
>> We tried taking Inverter 1 out of the system--moving inverter 2 up to Master and Inverter 3 to Slave 1.  The generator still surged. So if anyone started to think Inverter 1 was the problem, this was not confirmed.
>>  
>> We are certain the neutral bonding is exactly as it should be.  We tripled checked this when chasing the THD problems.  We also adjusted input AC from 30 to 50 (per port), no improvement.
>>  
>> I must say Outback has been very available to us as we try to figure these problems out.  I am fortunate that I am working with a senior engineer.  We are both currently stumped, but we are going to consult again tomorrow and see if any other ideas come to us.
>>  
>> Thanks everyone for the input.  More soon.
>>  
>> William Miller
>>  
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 6:35 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator surging
>>  
>> Hi William,
>>  
>> Do you know what your AC input mode is?  
>> I'd try playing with this mode.  
>> If you have a generator, I'd try switching between "generator", "support".  You may quickly see a difference.  There is a small diode symbol that shows up on the Mate3s screen during generator charging.  I don't fully understand what that means but I know that it can affect how a generator works with the Radian.
>>  
>> Also, you may try lowering the charging current and see how the generator responds.
>>  
>> What type of generator?  Whats your AC input limits?
>>  
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com <mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Adjust the generator max output in the outback down and see what happens
>> Jerry
>>  
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 4:04 PM William Miller <william at millersolar.com <mailto:william at millersolar.com>> wrote:
>> Friends:
>>  
>> I have a 24kW Radian system that is acting up.  The problem is when the generator is running, it surges.  Voltage and power go up and down.  We connected the generator to a load bank and there was no surging.  This makes me think the problem is in the Radian system.
>>  
>> Has anyone else experienced this?
>>  
>> Thanks in advance for any input.
>>  
>> William Miller
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>> 
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>> 
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>
>> 
>>  
>> -- 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Mac Lewis
>> 
>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
>> 
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
> 
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html>
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/>
> Tump at swnl.net <blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net>               www.SWNL.net <blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/>
>                 Solarwinds Northernlights       
>        Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
>                          207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401                              
>                               Blair "TUMP" May
>                ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>                       NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer" 
>    
>               ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ********
>                   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
> 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches_lists.re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200319/a68fee27/attachment.htm>