[RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
Ray
ray at solarray.com
Thu Sep 19 21:01:12 EDT 2019
In the regulatory vacuum that ensued, we now have dozens of unregulated
connectors, no way of knowing what might be on past jobs, confused
installers, nervous customers, while the market they tried to control is
flooded with "MC 4" crimpers on Amazon for $20.
All of this for the main connector used millions of times in almost ALL
Solar installations. I don't blame just the specific manufacturers that
might have benefited briefly from this lack of standards, but all of us
for letting this happen literally right in front of our eyes, and to go
on for over a decade.
The high DC voltages being used by most GT installs these days warrant
serious improvements in our safety standards process.
Arc fault detectors are not the first line of defense, good connections
are.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 9/19/19 5:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
> Someone previously at AEE tried to get NEMA involved in setting a
> standard, but it turned out that they were not getting cooperation
> from the mfg, so could not proceed.
>
> Brad
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:28 PM Bryan Norkunas <bryan at pv-cables.com
> <mailto:bryan at pv-cables.com>> wrote:
>
> Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3^rd party
> “compatibility” tests.
>
> *From:*Brian Mehalic [mailto:brian at solarenergy.org
> <mailto:brian at solarenergy.org>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM
> *To:* Bryan Norkunas
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>
> You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you
> specifically mean the intermatability test?
>
> Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out
> identifying some connectors on a problem-job a couple months
> back...thanks again!).
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
> SEI Professional Services
>
> http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas
> <bryan at pv-cables.com <mailto:bryan at pv-cables.com>> wrote:
>
> Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in
> the past –
>
> but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors,
> it has always been 14AWG for some reason.
>
> And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in
> the last 10 years we have never had the request to manufacture
> anything smaller than 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors.
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> bryan at pv-cables.com <mailto:bryan at pv-cables.com>
>
> Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/>
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf
> Of *Bryan Norkunas
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription:
> Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch
>
> Ray,
>
> Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4
> connectors, then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors.
>
> The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues
> and we assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers.
>
> Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the
> Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 connections failing. (I attached the
> Compatibility letter that Solarworld was providing their
> customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents )
>
> Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the
> plastic housings to determine the terminal overlap of cross
> mated connectors.
>
> Here are my notes from back then:
>
> The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305”
>
> The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265”
>
> A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully
> seating MC4 female to the H4 male. It takes some force to get
> them to fit completely and a nightmare to disconnect if needed.
>
> These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity
> environments. The picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated.
>
> cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320
>
> Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their
> modules over the years.
>
> Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount
> of experience with them. Jinko still does not offer a
> crimping tool for their connectors, that I know of and still
> only UL for 20A. We do little work with these connectors, so
> my input here might be outdated.
>
> Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of
> ours doing good work on obtaining the connector/module info
> from module manufactures, prior to placing their blanket
> orders. In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically supplying
> them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables,
> adapters, etc. And finally the end customer is knowing what
> connectors on the modules they are purchasing, with the
> availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun cables
> needed to complete the install.
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> bryan at pv-cables.com <mailto:bryan at pv-cables.com>
>
> Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/>
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>
> I did some research on the modules we've used over the past
> 15+ years to see if we had potential mismatched connector
> issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects since the advent of
> locking solar connectors. We had assumed they were compatible
> back then.
>
> Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to
> 2015. I didn't even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like
> H4, while SW 270s and back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC
> 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet for an SW
> 260 with an H4.
>
> _Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure._
>
> Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC
> 4 compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods
> apparently use the H4/ UTX
>
> _Conclusion: Total confusion in the field._
>
> Jinko? They don't even list the connector type on any of the
> spec sheets I have for the past few years.
>
> _Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know
> beforehand what connector to use in the field._
>
> Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the
> solar industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an
> organization like NEMA stepped in to standardize the
> connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for
> over a century?
>
> I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted
> the MC 4/ H4 locking type connectors that they were
> standardized and compatible. I can only hope that my systems
> running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not have
> issues.
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>
> Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors,
> we found that most of the aec issues were under low light.
> This appeared to be when iradiance was low and once the
> irads went up the issue was less likely, this was because
> the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under
> lower power it would arc instead of heating up and
> expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change
> due to the plastic.
>
> Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded
> the module after several repeat testing the connectors got
> warm. I would suggest making your own connector pull out
> tool to check the contact pressures. This is where you may
> find your problem components. It appears that early am
> testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the
> current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to
> the lower volts.
>
> This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab
> testing results were very close.
>
> The modules used for testing were Trina and the field
> inverters were ABB and Fronius
>
> Sorry for the long note
>
> Jerry
>
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence
> <lawrencesteven at gmail.com
> <mailto:lawrencesteven at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Everyone,
>
> Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted
> connectors that couldn't be traced to anything other
> than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some connectors
> where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself
> and nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were
> fine. I've postulated it had to do with slightly
> different metals expanding/contracting at different
> rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to
> never mix manufacturers of connectors. When we order
> modules, we specifically have the PO call out the
> manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4
> compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of
> connectors, but sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers
> made by a harness company (there are some connectors
> out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use
> them on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on
> the number of melted connectors. We've averaged maybe
> 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with this hard
> requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop
> project that mixed multiple manufacturers.
>
> Steven Lawrence
>
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