[RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

Tue Mar 20 21:53:59 EDT 2018

Ray, Chris, et al,

Both Paloma (185,500 BTU/h) and Bosch (117,000 BTU/h) manufactured
natural draft heaters that used zero electric, just like common tanks.
Because the majority of these units used a standing pilot, they were
castigated by the energy bureaucrat folks in favor of something that
used some electronics to create a spark. Complexity. Then to get the
unit bigger (max ~200,000 BTU/h) for non-boiler applications, a power
vent was added (more complexity) and in due time an electrically
driven gas valve (yet more complexity). To help keep the heater from
freezing when the installation was not done properly, electric ceramic
heaters were added to the heat exchanger to minimize freezing (~300 w
temperature activation). 

The way these non electric natural draft tankless heaters were used in
Europe and Asia was to turn off even the pilot once you were finished
using the water heater (they had the piezo (BBQ style) sparker that
was integrated with the unit as factory equipment). Energy efficient
and simple. There are rare non electric units still available
(sometimes at a premium) if you look hard in the US. Alternatively,
look no further than Canada and Mexico for the same non electric Bosch
models outlawed in the US. The Paloma has been out of production for
some time, so when my remaining new natural gas units are gone, I will
not be able to get any more either. 

Best wishes,
Bill Loesch
314 631 1094

	-----------------------------------------From: "Ray" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: 20-Mar-2018 21:15:19 +0000
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

	Rianai have 3 major issues when used off grid. 

	1) The phantom load when I checked was over 30 watts continuous.
That's over 700 w-hr/ day. 

	2) They need pure sine wave, and even have trouble on Trace SW
inverters. (One system I took over has a separate Exeltech on its own
battery and AC charger to run the Rianai, since they have Trace
inverters. Talk about a waste!)

	3) They still have the hard well water scaling issues. 

	Ray 

	Remote Solar

  On 3/20/18 12:03 PM, Dana wrote:

	It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive
to stable temperature production as flows from single handle facets
shut down the hot and opened the cold flows. 

	I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in
offgrid and 0 issues. I have family members that have had them in
residential homes for several years also and 0 issues. 

	They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water
temperature is very stable & consistent. I have not measured the
phantom load but could if someone needs to know. 

	2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO. 

	----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc.  

	C - 208.721.7003 DANA at SOLARWORK.COM [1] 

	Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 

	NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz [2] 

	"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

	P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

	FROM: RE-wrenches  [3] ON BEHALF OF cwarfel
 SENT: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM
 TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]
 SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person   

	What are the issues with tankless water heaters? I have heard them
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that
describes what they are. They are very popular where I live. Any info?
Thanks, Chris 

	On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:   

	And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to 

	charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost
always 

	the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water 

	heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. 

	An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed
loop 

	if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating
water 

	with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing
to 

	add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground 

	source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on
extremely 

	efficient mini split air source pumps. 

	I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it
allows 

	one to have more options. 

	Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

	"we go where powerlines don't" 

	 [5]http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] 

	e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] 

	text 209 813 0060 

	Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most
efficient are 

	the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for
about 

	$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper
pipe, 

	and 

	anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will
know all 

	pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might
be a 

	pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper
involved 

	and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but
think 

	for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly 

	vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset
more 

	energy. 

	On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake 

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