[RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality

Wed May 14 08:51:53 PDT 2025

Great info.

Are there any AGS out there that can communicate with Pytes or other
batteries via RS-485 and trigger based on battery SOC rather than using raw
voltage? That would solve one issue.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208

On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an
> external AGS Start relay.  There are many  customers using big
> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to
> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in.
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully
>> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all
>> times, but you will lose the AGS..."
>>
>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me
>> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed.
>>
>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still
>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS
>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts,
>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat
>> itself in a loop?
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce <
>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the
>>> questions.
>>>
>>>  Midnite Solar  does not currently have an official poster for the
>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep
>>> to work with the installers as we always have.
>>>
>>> To address the questions that were fielded:
>>>
>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the
>>> inverter if needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power,
>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you
>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via
>>> PV input) UNLESS the  "Min Initiation Startup  (off Grid)" setting is not
>>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn
>>> on the inverter.
>>>
>>>
>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other
>>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You
>>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL
>>> certifications.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes
>>> as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is
>>> not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The
>>> reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time.
>>> But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds
>>> the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs
>>> some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is
>>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's
>>> (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China
>>> supported inverters.
>>>
>>>
>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made,
>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some
>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie
>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and
>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self
>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud.
>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address
>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated
>>> inhouse, and components origins verified.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and
>>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great
>>> to offer.  We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum,
>>> can all be linked back to this team).
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out
>>>> of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution.
>>>>
>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with
>>>> a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator
>>>> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able
>>>> to charge the battery without user intervention.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jason,
>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter
>>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed
>>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite
>>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with
>>>>> that yet.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That has not been my experience.  I have had to manually reboot
>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid.  If there is snow on the array or
>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then
>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off.   This would
>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but
>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming
>>>>>> back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark:  its really
>>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact.  I'm sure
>>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least
>>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to
>>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated,
>>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming?  Planned
>>>>>> Obsolescence?  That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray Walters
>>>>>> Remote Solar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients.
>>>>>> In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the
>>>>>> background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next
>>>>>> day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael D Nelson
>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc.
>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile
>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office
>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com
>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
>>>>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always
>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply
>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my
>>>>>> aging backside.  Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough
>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the
>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too.  No special trip out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and
>>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the
>>>>>> offgrid battery.  Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing
>>>>>> like Lead Acid.  We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of
>>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse.  (Danger Will
>>>>>> Robinson)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray Walters
>>>>>> Remote Solar
>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send
>>>>>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits,
>>>>>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical
>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the
>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default
>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage
>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the
>>>>>> inverter back on automatically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>>>>>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen
>>>>>>> to bypass the inverter and power loads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>>>>>    <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>>>>>>> e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.net <offgridsolar at sti.net>
>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in
>>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike
>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an
>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which
>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is
>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that
>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work
>>>>>>> in my limited experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low
>>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON
>>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since
>>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to
>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current
>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to
>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the
>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in
>>>>>>> an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn
>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON
>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And
>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive,
>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can
>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is
>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter
>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state.
>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of
>>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will
>>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on,
>>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator
>>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is
>>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and
>>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery
>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is
>>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong
>>>>>>> about how this works?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer
>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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