[RE-wrenches] 210.8

[Lou Russo]

Aloha All,

I did manage to work it out with the engineer. After speaking with my AHJ,
consulting RE-wrenches, speaking with other contractors and going through
the code book I asked the engineer to add "install per 210.8" to his text
reading "Maintain 6' clear of water sources". The supervising inspector and
our area inspector, both agree 210.8 is not applicable in this situation.
The engineer gets what he wants and since 210.8 is not applicable in this
situation the language on the plans is a mute point.  We will also be
squeezing the equipment together a bit to get as close to 6ft as possible,
throw in a 3R gutter and everyone is happy. Including the homeowner who was
not budging on the location of the plumbing and electrical equipment.

I will approach the homeowner about a shroud of some kind over the pump
once the dust settles.

Yes, I could have gone with another engineer (we use several) but the
majority of the work was done and I did not want to further ruffle any
feathers. I have to think at some point I will get wind of the fact that
the engineer got burned by a similar situation.

Also, as William said his case "was not watertight" and I think he was
standing his ground so firmly that even if he realized he was incorrect he
could not make the u-turn.

Re-Learned my lesson here, never get too far down the design path using the
clients ideas. Sometimes I am just to flexible with our clients and their
ideas.

Thank you for all your input, as always it is much appreciated.

Aloha,

Lou Russo
Owner
lou at spreesolarsystems.com
Office - 808 345 6762
Spree Solar Systems LLC
CT-34322



On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 4:10 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Is there a different engineer you can hire to stamp this job?
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jay:
>>
>>
>>
>> 3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping water.
>> This is not protection against spraying water.   NEMA 4
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_enclosure_types> is for protection
>> from spraying water.
>>
>>
>>
>> More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not be relevant:
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        The original post indicated there are practical reasons not to
>> proceed with the project.  Coupled with the engineers reticence it seems
>> another option or some mitigation is called for.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator.  It was
>> said the engineer closed off discussion.  It may be he presented his best
>> case as to why not and now wants to move on.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code
>> compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a watertight case (pun
>> intended).
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        Design work is all about decision making.  I ask myself:
>>
>> 1.   Is it safe?
>>
>> 2.   Is it legal?
>>
>>
>>
>> Ideally both answers are Yes.
>>
>>
>>
>> If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign.
>>
>>
>>
>> If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to the design I
>> try to get a waiver.  I might talk with the building department or Fire
>> Marshall and make my case.
>>
>>
>>
>> ·        Maybe it’s time to think inside the box:  Could a removable
>> spray hood be fitted over the pump?
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM
>> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8
>>
>>
>>
>> If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine. Otherwise I
>> do like the partition idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the same
>> situation and an earthquake broke the line after the pressure pump that
>> sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback vfx inverters. Killing rhem both.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the
>> code is irrelevant.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it.
>> Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray
>> if there is a leak?
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM
>> *To:* Jason Szumlanski
>> *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason,
>>
>>
>>
>> That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he
>> will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to
>> discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably,
>> so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground.
>>
>>
>>
>> He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8.
>>
>>
>>
>> Very odd.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired
>> branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered
>> outlets or receptacles.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets
>> and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about
>> cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances.
>>
>>
>>
>> The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not
>> fall under this section.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hopefully that helps!
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Aloha All,
>>
>>
>>
>> My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and
>> load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the
>> inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI
>> protection.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a
>> code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load
>> center.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in
>> the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any input?
>>
>>
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>>
>>
>> Lou Russo
>>
>> Owner
>>
>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com
>>
>> Office - 808 345 6762
>>
>> Spree Solar Systems LLC
>>
>> CT-34322
>>
>>
>>
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