[RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail

Fri Oct 11 15:37:56 PDT 2024

I'll double-check that, but I have a site with an undersized PV system and
I'm pretty certain it reaches shutoff regularly and recovers without
intervention.

On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 6:22 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Interesting, because that has not been my experience, and Solark confirmed
> that when the inverter shuts down, the PV charging does too.  Maybe that
> has changed in a firmware update.  Or possibly, the inverter went through
> LBCO on the output as you mentioned, then dropped further through the night
> to shut down completely by the next morning.  Either way, the system has
> required manually resetting to start charging again.
>
> Ray Walters
> On 10/11/2024 3:57 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> I don’t think your understanding of the Sol Ark’s PV and LBCO relationship
> reflects actual functionality. Technically, Sol Ark doesn’t have a formal
> LBCO, but it has a “shut down” setting that cuts out AC output and can be
> programmed to cut off and cut back in at selected SOC or voltage settings,
>  but as long as the battery is connected, the Sol Ark sees that voltage and
> PV production if available, solar production will recharge batteries,
> regardless of AC output.
>
> But yes, I agrees that AIO’s could use a healthy dose of redundancy to
> allow for less fickle output.
>
> -Chris
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. If the
>> AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input as well. Then
>> the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the battery, and you're into a
>> dark start.  Generator won't even help.  AIOs are easy to install, but not
>> as full proof as DC coupled PV systems.  Also, the inter communication is a
>> major issue.  I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each other
>> out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple units.  I'm
>> sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I usually don't
>> interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand point.  I use open
>> loop charging based on voltage.
>>
>> I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were at 5000
>> deg Kelvin.  It shut all 4 inverters down.  My most reliable multiple
>> inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is now 24 years old.  Each
>> inverter feeds one leg of two load centers.  No comms, No 240 vac loads.
>> No shut downs.  That is the gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor
>> the module level rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of
>> reliability we had in the past.  In the off grid world, shut downs can be
>> life threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the code
>> since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe.
>>
>> You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one is
>> home?  Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled Lead acid
>> system?  Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, recharge the next day,
>> and automatically turn loads back on, we've gone backwards in our designs,
>> and equipment selection. AIOs are inferior if they can't achieve this basic
>> functionality.  If UL standards are causing this, then those standards are
>> incorrect for critical off grid and backup applications.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get
>> redundancy.
>>
>> Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager
>>
>>  250.703.6004
>>  eric at vecoop.ca
>>  888.386.0116
>>  3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/4997+Polkey+Rd,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++++++Duncan+BC,+V9L+6W3?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>  viridiansolar.ca
>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://viridiansolar.ca&source=gmail-html&ust=1702155901939000&usg=AOvVaw3SHpXB-WRSlzWmjpz4htqG>
>>
>>
>>
>> Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide
>> services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We
>> are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich
>> history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider
>> home.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Aloha All,
>>>
>>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I
>>> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was
>>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to
>>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on
>>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down.
>>>
>>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to
>>> prevent this from happening?
>>>
>>> Aloha,
>>>
>>> Lou Russo
>>> Owner
>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com
>>> Office - 808 345 6762
>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC
>>> CT-34322
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage,
>>>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage
>>>> to the array.
>>>>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a
>>>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid
>>>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it
>>>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite
>>>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark
>>>>> system...
>>>>>
>>>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per
>>>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during
>>>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error,
>>>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power
>>>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because
>>>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is
>>>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least
>>>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to
>>>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn
>>>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that
>>>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy
>>>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input
>>>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC
>>>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert
>>>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC
>>>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered.
>>>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should
>>>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is
>>>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills
>>>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no
>>>>> vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one,
>>>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running
>>>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the
>>>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the
>>>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing
>>>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>
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