[RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Fri Oct 11 15:22:31 PDT 2024
Interesting, because that has not been my experience, and Solark
confirmed that when the inverter shuts down, the PV charging does too.
Maybe that has changed in a firmware update. Or possibly, the inverter
went through LBCO on the output as you mentioned, then dropped further
through the night to shut down completely by the next morning. Either
way, the system has required manually resetting to start charging again.
Ray Walters
On 10/11/2024 3:57 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote:
> Hi Ray,
>
> I don’t think your understanding of the Sol Ark’s PV and LBCO
> relationship reflects actual functionality. Technically, Sol Ark
> doesn’t have a formal LBCO, but it has a “shut down” setting that cuts
> out AC output and can be programmed to cut off and cut back in at
> selected SOC or voltage settings, but as long as the battery is
> connected, the Sol Ark sees that voltage and PV production if
> available, solar production will recharge batteries, regardless of AC
> output.
>
> But yes, I agrees that AIO’s could use a healthy dose of redundancy to
> allow for less fickle output.
>
> -Chris
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery.
> If the AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input
> as well. Then the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the
> battery, and you're into a dark start. Generator won't even
> help. AIOs are easy to install, but not as full proof as DC
> coupled PV systems. Also, the inter communication is a major
> issue. I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each
> other out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple
> units. I'm sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I
> usually don't interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand
> point. I use open loop charging based on voltage.
>
> I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were
> at 5000 deg Kelvin. It shut all 4 inverters down. My most
> reliable multiple inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is
> now 24 years old. Each inverter feeds one leg of two load
> centers. No comms, No 240 vac loads. No shut downs. That is the
> gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor the module level
> rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of reliability
> we had in the past. In the off grid world, shut downs can be life
> threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the
> code since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe.
>
> You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one
> is home? Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled
> Lead acid system? Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO,
> recharge the next day, and automatically turn loads back on, we've
> gone backwards in our designs, and equipment selection. AIOs are
> inferior if they can't achieve this basic functionality. If UL
> standards are causing this, then those standards are incorrect for
> critical off grid and backup applications.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
>
> On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to
>> get redundancy.
>>
>> Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager
>> 250.703.6004
>> eric at vecoop.ca
>> 888.386.0116
>> 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/4997+Polkey+Rd,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++++++Duncan+BC,+V9L+6W3?entry=gmail&source=g>
>> viridiansolar.ca
>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://viridiansolar.ca&source=gmail-html&ust=1702155901939000&usg=AOvVaw3SHpXB-WRSlzWmjpz4htqG>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded
>> Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to
>> reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions
>> that characterise this land that we all consider home.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Aloha All,
>>
>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much
>> so that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to
>> confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told
>> this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a
>> feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on any
>> one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts
>> everything down.
>>
>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future
>> installs to prevent this from happening?
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>> Lou Russo
>> Owner
>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com
>> Office - 808 345 6762
>> Spree Solar Systems LLC
>> CT-34322
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via
>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly
>> physical damage, but someone passed by the property and
>> did not observe any physical damage to the array.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Jason
>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via
>>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> We have been talking a lot recently about
>>> all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during
>>> Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid
>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether
>>> AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some
>>> resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new
>>> Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is
>>> what happened to the Sol-Ark system...
>>>
>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled
>>> to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units
>>> developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm.
>>> This caused the slave inverter to shut down and
>>> throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel
>>> fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases
>>> at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting
>>> because I have a cell modem that uploads data to
>>> Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the
>>> inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at
>>> least intermittently. The rest of the loads are
>>> basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data.
>>> It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't
>>> turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes
>>> another shutdown.
>>>
>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a
>>> fault, and that causes all four inverters to
>>> malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a
>>> fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is
>>> a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down
>>> that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that
>>> inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to
>>> invert power from the batteries and charge from a
>>> generator when there is a DC input fault that could
>>> be programmatically isolated and ignored?
>>>
>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I
>>> hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't
>>> function with a DC input fault, it should just take
>>> itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split
>>> phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One
>>> inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled
>>> units' AC output? Not good.
>>>
>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote
>>> island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly
>>> easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially
>>> post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator
>>> was running at the time of the fault, as it was
>>> being signaled to run because the battery had
>>> reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also
>>> killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so
>>> the system also stopped passing through generator
>>> power to the loads. The house is dark.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>
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