[RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system
Bill Battagin
frenergy at psln.com
Sun May 12 07:58:06 PDT 2024
I'll just say I hope there are manufacturers of the equipment we are
using who are diligently reading our conversations here. They must know
how us Beta-testers (AKA: installers) are fairing with their shining new
versions of the stuff we install and become married to a positive
outcome for our customers and really the future of solar, hopefully not
at the cost of our sanity.
Personally, so far we've been happy with the switch to
SimpliPhi's batteries though I'm sure we're not installing the quantity
that many on the list are. Most have been in Outback/Midnite systems of
varying ages.
Bill
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, owner
4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell)
CA. C10 Lic # 874049
Solar Powered since 1982
Home of the Sunny Side Up
On 4/25/2024 11:08 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Ray,
> I'm in the same situation. My strategic plan was to work into early
> old age ( in 20-25 years). But now, I spend half of my time
> troubleshooting and replacing equipment on my dime. Between that,
> competing with Grid-Tied guys, and having to justify my mark-up to
> clients comparing my pricing to NAZ's, It's just not worth it anymore.
> Where I'm at, there's little commercial or industrial electrical work
> to be had so it's likely my future is pulling rope through attics and
> crawl spaces.
>
> Yes, the Magnum equipment produced for the first five or so years was
> extremely reliable. Same for the Outback, maybe less so. I was
> thinking that the only repairs I had to make on SWs was replacing
> transfer relays and that was only a few out of countless systems. I
> think it was Bob-O who many years ago introduced me to the saying
> "it's a race to the bottom" : )
>
> I tried EG4's in my own system when at 15 years my Rolls reached the
> end. I also tried them in a customers system. Absolute nightmare. I
> don't know which is worse, the batteries or Signature Solar.
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:36 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael;
>
> I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming
> along 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers. The old
> school off grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun,
> and were not going to call unless they couldn't fix it themselves.
>
> Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I
> have a new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips
> below 100 vac, every time any larger load goes on (well pump,
> garbage disposal, fridge, coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK
> battery monitors under warranty so far. Apparently you can NOT
> disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4 pin *connector*,
> or it will smoke the unit. That is a new problem, they used to be
> robust. I have many older Magnum systems that are great. Magnum
> quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata.
>
> If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being
> reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago. Now it
> looks like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years
> before retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize
> reliability. Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its
> still not ready for prime time, either. I have an installer buddy
> that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and
> the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark
> start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational
> for more than a few minutes. The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head
> once again. All we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5
> years old.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
>
> On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>> Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not
>> necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems
>> were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd
>> install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or
>> more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid
>> systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked
>> to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't
>> grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and
>> 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart
>> shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or
>> AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in
>> 10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have
>> tried to bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid
>> pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that
>> take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers,
>> and lots of headaches with Lithium.
>>
>> Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a
>> property with a legacy system and wants to live like they are
>> still in the City, that's an entirely different conversation.
>>
>> My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I
>> live Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7
>> months a year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost,
>> 12VDC device charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection
>> (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO),
>> Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for lighting
>> and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds
>> bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle
>> consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15
>> years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a
>> piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I
>> can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a
>> battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The
>> wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any
>> decent electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should
>> Todd Cory not be around :)
>>
>> Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've
>> installed and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems
>> from pinky dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the
>> best were/are either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or
>> Schneider/Discover and the latter have had their share of issues.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches
>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a
>> 12VDC distribution system. I'd have to move them around every
>> week or so to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts.
>> They seem to work fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using
>> MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or other MidNite
>> boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any
>> standard distribution box for them.
>>
>> Brad Bassett
>> Application Engineer retired
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via
>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those
>> situations. We have a couple of barrier islands around
>> here where people have set up what amounts to little fish
>> camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also
>> home to a few full-time/most-time residents and
>> state parks. Everyone knows everyone. The clients are
>> safe and reliable. These sites range from places that
>> people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago
>> all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips of
>> sand where very wealthy people like to look out over
>> Naples beach a couple times of year from their off-grid
>> mansions. It's pretty interesting.
>>
>> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times
>> a year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach.
>> There is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like
>> this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to meet the
>> very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a
>> reliable and long-lasting solution for around $25K and
>> pocket enough money that I want to answer their call in
>> the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x 100W
>> Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda
>> EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with the
>> performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is
>> installed in a safe and professional manner.
>>
>> The current distribution systems look solid, each
>> protected by a Square D QO breaker panel and
>> professionally installed. The power production and
>> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix
>> without too much risk.
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid
>> Solar via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> How about just buy an RV?
>> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of
>> the experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid
>> Squalor.
>> Just have to be careful especially these days of
>> druggies, people in vans with no windows, ex
>> paramilitary that went bad,
>> and you get the picture.
>> If you know the person that is the way to keep you
>> and your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes
>> and the lack can of it
>> can be a warning.
>> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are
>> what gets my accountant telling me if you do not
>> charge enough,
>> no one will listen to your advice.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
>> don't"
>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via
>> RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>> Just using the converter works fine. They are
>>> considered a battery charger or a regulated power
>>> supply. I am currently running that way now with the
>>> battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of
>>> putting the battery back in the system just for
>>> triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery
>>> cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel
>>> for the generator (or it won't start).
>>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30
>>> amps.
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via
>>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V
>>> battery with a charger. I was thinking of just
>>> using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC
>>> loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or
>>> can I just power the DC loads directly with a
>>> converter? If I just have lights and fans on the
>>> DC system, the load should be pretty minimal.
>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would
>>> like to eliminate that cost and complexity if
>>> possible.
>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money
>>> making opportunity. It's really just a challenge
>>> to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design
>>> Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John
>>> Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jason,
>>> I have a customer with the same situation
>>> except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter,
>>> He has a sunfrost fridge and other small
>>> loads with a very fancy custom control board
>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC
>>> systems. We are adding a lot more solar and
>>> I was considering a dual battery system but
>>> the owner didn't like that idea. We are
>>> going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use
>>> one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up
>>> all his DC loads and will be adding a large
>>> 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar
>>> using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the
>>> 12V inverter. He complained that the
>>> existing inverter would not handle all his
>>> current AC loads very well. My own house is
>>> fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of
>>> #10 copper not being used) and I have been
>>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery
>>> to put back on by DC System. Then use the
>>> Iota as a secondary charging method with
>>> some of my large stash of older modules
>>> hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge
>>> controller to recreate my original system
>>> just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
>>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the
>>> livingroom right now. For your customer, a
>>> small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or
>>> less) to replace his old battery bankm and
>>> more larger ones for the new AC side with
>>> 48V inverter fed by his generator or through
>>> an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non
>>> charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these
>>> challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to
>>> make money.!!
>>> John Blittersdorf
>>> offgridvermont.com <http://offgridvermont.com>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason
>>> Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy
>>> and is willing to live with any negative
>>> consequences. That said, I want to offer
>>> him something as simple and bulletproof
>>> as possible. I am walking into this with
>>> eyes wide open, for sure.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar
>>> Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor
>>> CVC56956
>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor
>>> EC13013208
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave
>>> Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
>>> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not being helpful but I walk away
>>> from these. It will come back to you.
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go
>>> where powerlines don't"
>>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
>>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209
>>> 813 0060*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason
>>> Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who is
>>> working on replacing old
>>> equipment at a cabin. He has a
>>> lot of 12 volt distribution in
>>> the house for lighting, fans,
>>> and a 12 volt refrigerator. He
>>> also has 120 volt AC loads that
>>> run through a separate
>>> distribution panel where the
>>> only source is a 2000 Watt Honda
>>> generator. There is no inverter
>>> present. The batteries are
>>> charged through a Trace C40.
>>> He currently has a few ancient
>>> solar panels and a struggling
>>> Bank of AGM batteries. It's time
>>> for an upgrade. I can easily
>>> supply enough PV power for what
>>> he needs. He currently has a 9
>>> kilowatt hour battery capacity
>>> that he was happy with when the
>>> batteries operated optimally.
>>> Nonetheless, I would probably
>>> future-proof him with a 10 to 15
>>> kilowatt hour LiPo to double or
>>> triple his usable capacity.
>>> For convenience, obviously it
>>> would be nice to have an
>>> inverter to eliminate or reduce
>>> the generator requirement. But
>>> he seems committed to keeping
>>> his 12 volt distribution because
>>> it would be costly to replace
>>> fixtures. I think he would
>>> consider replacing the 12 volt
>>> refrigerator if he has an inverter.
>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt
>>> direct from a battery plus
>>> connecting an inverter to that
>>> same battery. It is going to be
>>> hard to measure and monitor things.
>>> I am thinking about using a 48
>>> volt battery with a single phase
>>> 120 volt inverter, getting him
>>> to change to a 120 volt
>>> refrigerator, and using a DC
>>> converter to give him somewhere
>>> in the range of 100 amps at 12
>>> volts for his existing DC
>>> lighting and fan loads. Is this
>>> a bad idea? Should I stick with
>>> a 12 volt battery system? He
>>> does have a tiny 12 volt
>>> pressure pump which might be an
>>> issue for the converter. I'm not
>>> sure. I am a bit worried about
>>> the efficiency loss and capacity
>>> of DC converters and not sure
>>> how to size it.
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>
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>> --
>>
>> Michael Morningstar
>>
>>
>> Morningstar Electric Inc
>>
>> PO Box 1494
>>
>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>>
>> 530-921-0560
>>
>> CSLB 1116835
>>
>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
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> _______________________________________________
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> --
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
> Morningstar Electric Inc
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> CSLB 1116835
>
> mjmorningstar at gmail.com
>
>
>
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