[RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system
Tom McCalmont
tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com
Fri May 3 16:19:55 PDT 2024
David is correct. We have some experience with Sol-Ark’s inverter, and it’s a good product. However, be aware that you can configure it either as a 120V inverter with a max. output of about 5 kW or as a 240V inverter with a max. output of about 8 kW. However, it does NOT do split-phase, meaning if you configure it for 240V, it cannot run loads that require a neutral.
Tom McCalmont
Paired Power
> On May 3, 2024, at 4:12 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version
> David
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>> For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you know otherwise.
>>
>> I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.
>>
>> BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V inverter.
>>
>> I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for this job.
>>
>>
>> And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>>> Jason,
>>> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it won't start).
>>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be pretty minimal.
>>>>
>>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>>>>> Jason,
>>>>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control board
>>>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>>>>>
>>>>> John Blittersdorf
>>>>> offgridvermont.com <http://offgridvermont.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you.
>>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>>>>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net <mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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