[RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Fri May 3 16:12:38 PDT 2024

I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version
David

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with
> 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was
> considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase
> inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the
> other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this
> application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in
> the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have
> not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you
> know otherwise.
>
> I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The
> biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on
> the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan
> starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only
> reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner
> wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.
>
> BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a
> split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V
> inverter.
>
> I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I
> can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point
> they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the
> shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and
> separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been
> dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought
> EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues
> other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm
> impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't
> want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but
> I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for
> this job.
>
>
> And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh
> battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match.
> I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with
> the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to
> the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they
> upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>   Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery
>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now
>> with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the
>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits
>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the
>> generator (or it won't start).
>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
>>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
>>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
>>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
>>> should be pretty minimal.
>>>
>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
>>> cost and complexity if possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
>>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>>>
>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jason,
>>>>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12
>>>> V VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
>>>> fancy custom control board
>>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot
>>>> more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't
>>>> like that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at
>>>> my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
>>>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
>>>> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
>>>> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
>>>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
>>>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
>>>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
>>>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
>>>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
>>>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
>>>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
>>>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
>>>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
>>>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
>>>> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>>>>
>>>> John Blittersdorf
>>>> offgridvermont.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>>>>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>>>>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>>>>> for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>>>>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>>>>    <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>>>>>> e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.net <offgridsolar at sti.net>
>>>>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment
>>>>>> at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
>>>>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
>>>>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
>>>>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
>>>>>> through a Trace C40.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of
>>>>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV
>>>>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery
>>>>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally.
>>>>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt
>>>>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
>>>>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
>>>>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace
>>>>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
>>>>>> he has an inverter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus
>>>>>> connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to
>>>>>> measure and monitor things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120
>>>>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using
>>>>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts
>>>>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I
>>>>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure
>>>>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit
>>>>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not
>>>>>> sure how to size it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>>>>> the other:
>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>>>>> the other:
>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>>
>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>>>
>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>>>> the other:
>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>>
>>>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>
>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>>> the other:
>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>
>>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>> the other:
>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20240503/2ac98440/attachment.htm>