[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Kevin Pegg
kpegg at energyalternatives.ca
Mon Feb 12 19:18:11 PST 2024
Hi John,
Do you know what firmware version was causing your initial over-voltage situation?
Kevin
From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 8:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Cc: John Blittersdorf <john.blittersdorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Ray,
With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of XW inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience with one I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging 48V L16 wet cell batteries. In both cases with charge settings double checked and triple checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb setting and destroyed the batteries. In one case a battery blew its top off. The other we caught in time and shut it down. That one had some bad cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I installed) and when I arrived there the room was HOT from the boiling batteries. I replaced them with 2 strings of 8 and though I was skeptical about the charge rate being stable, left it to the owner to monitor. That was last year and he has recently called to have me check a potential overcharging issue. The other one I installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie application and the after several years of working properly suddenly started overcharging out of control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries were overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the DC switches off. I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it out right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the system on and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it down. Fast forward 2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there was a firmware problem and after much agrivation getting the firmware updated with no internet and poor phone coverage, got it back working OK. Fast forward again 2 more years, problem is back. I have the system set to charge at 1 amp and am able to at least keep the inverter on to sell his solar power. Ready to start round 3 with Schneider, this time with internet and good phone service By the way, I have never had overcharge issues with Outback unless my settings were too high. Someone mentioned lack of overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's. I know for a fact that the Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high lead acid settings on the Outback Radian when installing the Fortress batteries. They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I stopped the overcharge.
John Blittersdorf
On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.
Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.
How many times have we all heard the old 'Manu S blaming Manu X' snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries.
So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's approx. $1.60/ kWh of use from the old set. Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of years?
In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole 'battery heating do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters' BS either.
Li+ is just not ready for off grid. It seems to work fine for folks that don't rely on it, like GTB.
At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a 'Fly by night/ made in China' offering. Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start failing on my watch.
I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. <rant off>
Sincerely,
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS failure/warranty/fix/replacement.
Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.
I guess its something else we need to check on.
Jay
On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters.
Brad
On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
Pals:
Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka
We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid batteries.
William
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>
CA Lic. 773985
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