[RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply
Christopher Warfel
cwarfel at entech-engineering.com
Thu Mar 30 04:34:20 PDT 2023
If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL and the
Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment method is back to
using the attachment holes in the solar module. Chris
On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
> This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good
> reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having
> just gone through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in
> Florida's history (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and
> another major wind event (Irrma) just 5 years ago.
>
> First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I
> would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge
> HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge
> sales rep. They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss
> installation procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose
> product, and they did a stellar job on the engineering documentation
> in my opinion.
>
> Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian,
> the number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed
> due to fastener pull-out (mine or competitors):
>
> ZERO
>
> The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with
> pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the
> mounts themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself
> failed, causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in
> that case, the following applies...
>
> The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the
> fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we
> saw failures. These failures fell into a few categories:
>
> * Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped
> out of mid-clamps.
> * Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good
> percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the
> ground!) I suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending
> frames inward.
> * Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel
> dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads.
> * Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO,
> Unirac SM).
> * Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail).
> * Unexplained module detachment failures.
>
> On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my
> front door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many
> roof leaks my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the
> efficacy of my business going forward. Those fears never materialized.
> Aside from a handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic
> following the storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem
> became all of the people needing to remove panels for roof
> replacements, but PV panels largely protected roofs in the areas where
> they were installed. Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as
> well.
>
> Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of
> non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My
> thinking is coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust
> IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants have come so far. This
> method will remain up for debate probably for a long time. Around
> here, I am pretty certain these products will outlast the shingles
> they are placed upon. We only get 15 years out of most shingle roofs
> around here.
>
> About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat
> roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These
> screws are usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 -
> 12". Not a single failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase
> Low-Slope bases on pitched tile roofs that were only screwed into
> decking with 4 fasteners each (due to horizontal truss transitions) in
> some cases. Zero failures. But the most relevant attachments I can
> think of that are germane to this discussion are the many thousands of
> S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V metal roofs
> around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests
> show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for
> safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we usually get
> anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 inches in
> certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure.
>
> I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach
> (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have
> decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments
> other than trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust
> decking-only attachments from a pull-out strength standpoint. When
> properly engineered, with cautious attachment spacing, these mounts
> work in both OSB and plywood. Because of the inconsistencies in OSB,
> we always err on the side of caution, if not in the engineering, then
> in the installation, by installing more attachments than prescribed.
> But the evidence is clear. It works.
>
>
> Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and
> no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12.
>
> And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside
> from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure,
> we had zero failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report.
>
> I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside.
> Please reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details
> about our experience with catastrophic wind events.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
> Thanks for bringing up this scenario.
>
> I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or
> other deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid
> foam-above-sheeting roof:
>
> 1.I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This
> could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or
> wobbly brackets.
>
> 2.I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof
> rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc.
> Since roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that
> gravity is the only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping,
> seamless material is the only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof
> surfaces become powdery, and the rafter is often under an
> architectural feature or seam in the shingles.
>
> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The
> fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according
> to the fastener manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to
> the decking and the forces, then maybe you have a start to a
> mounting solution.
>
> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of
> flashing metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing
> gives a flat, seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker
> and wider the flashing, the more you distribute the downward force
>
> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under
> the bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it.
>
> I hope these musings help you find a solution.
>
> William Miller
>
> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on
> flat, built-up roofing (BUR
> <https://homeinspectioninsider.com/built-up-roofing/>). We have
> dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on
> top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into
> the roofing with cant strips
> <https://www.blueridgefiberboard.com/cant-strip-tapered-edge-smoothes-roof-drainage-slope/>.
> A pitched roof is a different situation, however.
>
> Wm
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
> *August Goers via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* August Goers
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply
>
> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions
> typically pencil out structurally (via a structural professional
> engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming
> we have all the info on how the roof is constructed. The big
> assumption is that we can get all that roof construction info,
> which can be difficult for existing structures.
>
> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount
> products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do
> think that they offer several significant advantages including not
> needing to find rafters, thus virtually eliminating missed pilot
> holes, and not disturbing the comp shingle by eliminating prying
> up the courses to insert the flashing.
>
> August
>
> Luminalt
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via
> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing!
>
> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting <https://spiderrax.com/>*
>
> *spiderrax.com <https://spiderrax.com/>*
>
>
>
> *Error! Filename not specified.* <https://spiderrax.com/>
>
> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*
>
> President
>
> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/*
>
> *Since 1987, helping you and your *
>
> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally
> sustainable future.*
>
> *503-238-4502 <tel:503-238-4502>
> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com <http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/>*
>
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Wrenches
>
> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few
> multi hole attachment bases that are designed for SIP's.
> Most will have a larger base, lots of holes for screws to
> attach that do not require rafters underneath to attach.
>
> Fun times
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches
> <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Matt,
>
> I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or
> 5/8" and how thick is the foam? Oh and I assume its
> nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the plywood is
> attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to
> stringers, nailers or whatever they're called?
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
>
> Bill Battagin, Owner
>
> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
>
> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
>
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>
> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
>
> CA Lic 874049
>
> Solar powered since 1982
>
> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> I've used these in the past when on a comp roof
> and there was no good way to get into the rafters
> (or TJI's in this case)
>
> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/
>
> You might want to replace the screws with
> something shorter and beefier though to get more
> grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via
> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've run into a roof-mounted job where the
> roof is built-up with the following:
>
> Comp shingle
>
> Plywood
>
> Foam board
>
> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling)
>
> The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced
> and not convenient for fastening the full
> extent of the array.
>
> This being the case, I was considering other
> fastening options and am writing to pick the
> collective brain of the Wrenches to see how
> others have addressed similar situations.
>
> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy
> Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any opinions
> on that or another solution.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Sherald
>
> PIMBY Energy, LLC
>
> 304-704-5943
>
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>
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>
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>
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Christopher Warfel
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978
<http://entech-engineering.com>
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