[RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection?

Tue Nov 1 12:21:37 PDT 2016

Bill et al.,

I received a call from Dan and he cleared things up for me. I have a better understanding of what's happening here in this section of the code. Again, thanks for taking the time to spread some knowledge. I really do appreciate you responding to my green inquiry.

Still learning, always learning,

Eric Stikes
Founding Director & CEO
Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp.
www.goodsun.life
(530)798-3738

--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection?
From: eric at harvesthesun.com
Date: 11/1/16 11:01 am
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>

  Bill,

OK. I think I get it. We're protecting against nuisance tripping due to heat build up over time at breaker terminals resulting from continuous loads/sources of current. I understand that you mean an inverter, as a continuous power source, needs to be "allowed" greater flexibility (125%) of current constraint in order to function when you mention having to "withstand" a certain size breaker. However, we're still missing the actual "overcurrent" protection part, no? Obviously there's Article 240. But that's still not setting a max OCPD size, right?...unless I am missing something.

I won't blame you if you decide you have more important things to attend than educating me on the nuances of the NEC. I'm still learning and I do greatly appreciate your insight!

Eric

--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection?
From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net
Date: 10/31/16 5:41 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>

  Eric,

Your reasoning sounds logical, but it is missing the point. Transformers have to be protected by overcurrent devices, similar to wire. Inverters are current limited devices so they only have to be able to withstand a certain size circuit breaker. The current from the inverter is considered continuous so most circuit breakers are designed to operate at 80% of their rating continuously (therefore the requirement to multiply inverter output current by 125%).

 Does that make any more sense?

 Bill.

 Bill Brooks, PE
 Principal
 Brooks Engineering
 3949 Joslin Lane
 Vacaville, CA 95688
 707-332-0761 (office and mobile)
 bill at brooksolar.com (email)
 www.brooksolar.com (web)

 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 3:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Undercurrent Protection?

   I realize this is potentially a stupid question, and one that is long overdue, but here goes:

Why in 690(B) are we setting a minimum threshold on OCPD when we're protecting against over current?

Shouldn't we be setting a maximum threshold...as is done in pretty much all other cases? The way I see it, we should take the array/inverter max output AC current and multiply by 125% to set our min ampacity on wire,

and then calc down to find the breaker trade size that lands between the max AC output current and max AC output current times 125%. That way, we avoid nuisance tripping but achieve the max overcurrent protection possible.

By following 690(B) we're actually decreasing OCP: Literally, 690(B) is stating that we can have a breaker 100x over the circuit rating, so long as it's not under the circuit rating times 1.25. To me this seems antilogical.

Mr. Brooks?

690.9(B) Overcurrent Device Ratings. Overcurrent device ratings

shall be not less than 125 percent of the maximum

currents calculated in 690.8(A).

455.7(B)...The overcurrent protection determined

from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the

phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes.

450.4(A)...Such overcurrent device

shall be rated or set at not more than 125 percent of

the rated full-load input current of the autotransformer.

450.5(A)(2) Overcurrent Protection. An overcurrent sensing device

shall be provided that will cause the main switch or commontrip

overcurrent protection referred to in 450.5(A)(1) to open if

the load on the autotransformer reaches or exceeds 125 percent

of its continuous current per-phase or neutral rating.

450.5(B)(2)(b) Ampere Rating. The overcurrent protection shall be

rated or set at a current not exceeding 125 percent of the 

autotransformer continuous per-phase current rating or

42 percent of the continuous-current rating of any seriesconnected

devices in the autotransformer neutral connection.

Eric Stikes

Founding Director & CEO

Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp.

www.goodsun.life

(530) 559-5023

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