[RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Fri Jan 29 13:27:21 PST 2016
Again I haven't tried the Aquion, but when you look at a typical setup
with two M110 banks for 1160 AH, that has a peak power of 19.2 kW. This
would be 24 of the S30 blocks. That seems like usable surge to me, but
maybe I'm missing something? I attached the M110 spec sheet.
It seems that just like with lead acid batteries, you need to keep your
normal discharge at a C20 or less. Aou can't operate at low temps, and
the inverter needs to be able to handle lower than normal voltages.
We really need some users of the Aquion to comment, as we all know,
actual experience on this list trumps the collective speculation.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 1/29/2016 12:45 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Dan,
>
> I concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an Aquion
> presentation, and reviewing the operating curves, this battery has a
> very narrow application.
>
> Most off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads. That is
> why we spend so much time and effort making sure our inverter is
> properly rated for the worst-case surges. Most batteries are relied
> upon, not just for energy storage, which Aquion appears to deliver,
> but we also must have significant surge power. Aquion essentially has
> no surge capability.
>
> If you have an application where a non-surge inverter will work, then
> you might have an Aquion application. Otherwise, stay away from Aquion
> until they develop a concept that allows surges.
>
> Think of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are
> notoriously poor at surges.
>
> Bill.
>
> Bill Brooks, PE
>
> Principal
>
> Brooks Engineering
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries
>
> I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and
> tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with
> not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did
> some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on
> Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right.
> Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with
> these batteries.
>
> I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower,
> repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high
> charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of
> -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of
> year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these
> applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an
> outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower.
>
> AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric
> installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept
> at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of
> life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for
> me on these applications.
>
> My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP
> conference last year.
>
> Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar
> technologies appreciated here also.
>
> Best regards;
>
>
> Dan Fink
>
> Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute
>
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>
> ~ PV Installation Professional
>
> ~ Small Wind Installer
>
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>
> NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342 <tel:970.672.4342>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems
> <larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote:
>
> I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some
> concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that
> conversation:
>
> Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge
> curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I
> can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications
> without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about
> 40% could be used before LVD.
>
> And this:
>
> The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates
> from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42
> volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the
> capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback
> can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the
> full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts.
>
> I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me
> like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid
> environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh?
> BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match
> the first chart I posted.
>
> On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer
> <chris at solarandwindfx.com <mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com>> wrote:
>
> To All,
>
> Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone
> dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of
> potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a
> NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I
> wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion
> batteries”.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christopher
>
> *From:*RE-wrenches
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
> *don at energysolarnow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49
> *To:* Dan Fink
> *Cc:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of
> Powerwall Batteries
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.
>
> I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the
> Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries.
>
> It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the
> genny to kick on each morning even in the summer.
>
> This is even worse in cold winter weather.
>
> Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC
> with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well.
>
> Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?
>
> Thanks
>
> Don Barch
>
> Energy Solar
>
> don at energysolarnow.com
>
>
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