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Again I haven't tried the Aquion, but when you look at a typical
setup with two M110 banks for 1160 AH, that has a peak power of 19.2
kW. This would be 24 of the S30 blocks. That seems like usable surge
to me, but maybe I'm missing something? I attached the M110 spec
sheet. <br>
It seems that just like with lead acid batteries, you need to keep
your normal discharge at a C20 or less. Aou can't operate at low
temps, and the inverter needs to be able to handle lower than normal
voltages.<br>
We really need some users of the Aquion to comment, as we all know,
actual experience on this list trumps the collective speculation.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2016 12:45 PM, <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net">billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net</a></a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:014301d15acd$9074e330$b15ea990$@sbcglobal.net"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an
Aquion presentation, and reviewing the operating curves,
this battery has a very narrow application. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Most
off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads.
That is why we spend so much time and effort making sure our
inverter is properly rated for the worst-case surges. Most
batteries are relied upon, not just for energy storage,
which Aquion appears to deliver, but we also must have
significant surge power. Aquion essentially has no surge
capability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If
you have an application where a non-surge inverter will
work, then you might have an Aquion application. Otherwise,
stay away from Aquion until they develop a concept that
allows surges.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Think
of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are
notoriously poor at surges.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Bill.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Bill
Brooks, PE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Principal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Brooks
Engineering<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
RE-wrenches [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Fink<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's
SOC/voltage curves and tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with
standard PV equipment, tied in with not being able to handle
high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did some math on
running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on Aquions,
and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math
right. Very interested to hear personal experience on
off-grid homes with these batteries. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I was starting to envision
applications for remote MET tower, repeater tower etc
applications with low discharge C-rates and high charging
C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature
of -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during
certain times of year in many areas, including here in
sunny Colorado. In these applications the batteries are
NOT in a heated room, instead an outdoor enclosure at the
base of a tower.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">AGMs are serving us here just fine on
these sorts of esoteric installations, and they have no
problem with -29C and lower when kept at high SOC. And,
cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of
life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not
adding up for me on these applications.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My only experience with Aquion was
their class at the NABCEP conference last year. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any ground truth experience and stories
on Aquions and other similar technologies appreciated here
also.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Dan Fink</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Adjunct
Professor, Ecotech Institute<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">IREC Certified
Instructor™ for: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">~ PV
Installation Professional<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">~ Small Wind
Installer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Executive
Director, Buckville Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">NABCEP
Accredited Continuing Education
Providers™<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:970.672.4342"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#1155CC">970.672.4342</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM,
Starlight Solar Power Systems <<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I too am interested in anyone that
has installed these. I had some concerns back on Nov
10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Something does not add up to me.
The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside
that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I
can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE
applications without wasting much of the capacity.
From what I see, only about 40% could be used before
LVD.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And this:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white">The
Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack
operates from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have
a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on
voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity
of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the
outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still
not able to use the full capacity of the battery
unless your load is less than 800 Watts. </span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">I have reviewed their
technical presentation and it looks to me like the
capacity simply can't be used in the off grid
environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate
it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on
the spec sheet does not match the first chart I
posted.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part6.05020901.06070902@solarray.com"
border="0" height="415" width="449"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM,
Chris Schaefer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris@solarandwindfx.com"
target="_blank">chris@solarandwindfx.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To
All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
Great insight on the lithium movement. I
do am looking for anyone dealing with
the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a
couple of potential clients that have
inquired about them. Saw them at a
NABCEP training session last spring and
while the idea is moving I wasn’t
impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a
new thread, “Aquion batteries”.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Christopher</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
RE-wrenches [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:don@energysolarnow.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:don@energysolarnow.com">don@energysolarnow.com</a></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 29 January,
2016 00:49<br>
<b>To:</b> Dan Fink<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches]
LiFePO4; WAS Availability of
Powerwall Batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Thanks
for sharing your experience with these
batteries, Dan.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I
have similar SOC issues with an
off-grid customer who has the Aquion
Hybrid Ion batteries.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">It
has difficulty reaching full charge
from solar, requiring the genny to
kick on each morning even in the
summer.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">This
is even worse in cold winter weather.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Your
explanation of the change in Peukert's
exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe
batteries sounds like what is
happening here as well. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Do
you have any experience with Aquion
batteries that you can share?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Don
Barch </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Energy
Solar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:don@energysolarnow.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:don@energysolarnow.com">don@energysolarnow.com</a></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
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