[RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators

Thu Apr 9 14:38:38 PDT 2015

Maybe that control board could be disconnected when the generator is 
in-between uses ?

boB

On 4/9/2015 2:17 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
> I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it. However the 
> continuous draw of the on board electronics is just ridiculous for an 
> off grid generator.
> A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to keep 
> up with the draw.  Running AC off the inverter to the generator is 
> also just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load.
> We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a generator 
> that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM Kohlers.  
> Most of those are still in service, and had simple 2 wire start.  The 
> Ecogen's onboard computer is a serious design flaw IMO.   We don't 
> need the generator to "think" in an off grid system; we already have 
> inverters that do a much better job of that.  The generator just needs 
> to start reliably when its called upon.
> I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the Ecogens 
> could explain why the on board electronics are good, or...... how to 
> bypass them completely.
> We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the 
> closer today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we and 
> our customers will all be.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett wrote:
>> Dana:
>>
>> Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for 
>> a renewable energy system*
>> /* including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power 
>> source/
>>
>> http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf
>>
>> The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) 
>> and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant 
>> frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand.
>>
>> Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour 
>> warranty.
>> http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Gary Willett
>> Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC
>>
>>
>> On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes 
>>> as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 
>>> watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing 
>>> air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they 
>>> need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed 
>>> at 80 MPH?
>>>
>>> Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator 
>>> out there?
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Dana Orzel
>>>
>>> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>>>
>>> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com
>>>
>>> O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
>>>
>>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
>>>
>>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>>
>>> *From:*Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM
>>> *To:* dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators
>>>
>>> We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but 
>>> works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat 
>>> different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when 
>>> the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but 
>>> also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads 
>>> are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then 
>>> what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for 
>>> optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every 
>>> shop has there own math.
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana <dana at solarwork.com 
>>> <mailto:dana at solarwork.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey All –
>>>
>>> I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last 
>>> conversation with Kohler was the same story basically.
>>>
>>> I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 
>>> (22 KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called 
>>> me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility 
>>> inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the 
>>> Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run 
>>> time for standby power and maintenance per year.
>>>
>>> Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 
>>> 82-8300 watt generator does just fine?
>>>
>>> A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & 
>>> manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance.
>>>
>>> The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” 
>>> generator the fine is now $39,000 per day!
>>>
>>> Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air 
>>> quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled 
>>> generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 
>>> years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the 
>>> “Generator” talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. 
>>> So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units 
>>> are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, 
>>> unless you are at 10,000 ft el.
>>>
>>> If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW 
>>> plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 
>>> 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM 
>>> = 40 MPH.  Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow 
>>> (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable.
>>>
>>> So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water 
>>> generators?
>>>
>>> There is a business opportunity here folks.
>>>
>>> What are you all installing?
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Is it reliable?
>>>
>>> Would you use it on your house?
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge.
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *Dana Orzel*
>>>
>>> _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_
>>>
>>> *E*- dana at solarwork.com <mailto:dana at solarwork.com>  - *Web* - 
>>> solarwork.com <http://solarwork.com>
>>>
>>> *O*- 970.626.5253 <tel:970.626.5253> *C *- 208.721.7003 
>>> <tel:208.721.7003> - No FAX Line
>>>
>>> *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _*
>>>
>>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________
>>>

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