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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Maybe that control board could be disconnected when the generator
is in-between uses ?<br>
<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/9/2015 2:17 PM, Ray Walters wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com" type="cite">
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I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it.
However the continuous draw of the on board electronics is just
ridiculous for an off grid generator.<br>
A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to
keep up with the draw. Running AC off the inverter to the
generator is also just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load.<br>
We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a
generator that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM
Kohlers. Most of those are still in service, and had simple 2
wire start. The Ecogen's onboard computer is a serious design
flaw IMO. We don't need the generator to "think" in an off grid
system; we already have inverters that do a much better job of
that. The generator just needs to start reliably when its called
upon. <br>
I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the
Ecogens could explain why the on board electronics are good,
or...... how to bypass them completely. <br>
We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the
closer today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we
and our customers will all be.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com"
type="cite">
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Dana:<br>
<br>
Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose
built for a renewable energy system* <br>
<small><i>* including an inverter, battery bank and alternative
energy power source</i></small><br>
<br>
<small><small><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf</a><br>
</small></small><br>
The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP
only) and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a
constant frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical
demand. <br>
<br>
Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000
hour warranty.<br>
<small><small><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf</a></small></small><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Gary Willett<br>
Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I agree
but full load charging usually only lasts but a few
minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as
voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts
the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away
generators that run so fast & hot that they need to
be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel
consumed at 80 MPH?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Is
there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW
generator out there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060">----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Dana
Orzel <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Great
Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">E - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>
- Web - solarwork.com <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">O -
970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">"Responsible
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Jerry Shafer [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com">mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up
generators<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We don't install anything smaller
then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as
the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I
use max potential load and max potential charge as
when the batteries are low the genny must not only
supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a
reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the
genny only has enough to maintain that load then what
about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny
rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is
only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM,
Dana <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Hey
All – </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I
just got off of a phone call with my Onan
generator supplier. Last conversation with
Kohler was the same story basically.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I
was informed that their smallest water cooled
generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer
“rated “for off grid. They actually called me to
confirm that this generator was for backup power
to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4
generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code
what covers this, & you are allowed 100
hours of run time for standby power and
maintenance per year. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Q
- Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for
something that an 82-8300 watt generator does
just fine?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">A
- The EPA current requirements, a shrinking
economy, & manufacturers that have to meet
very expensive air quality compliance. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">The
Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby
power only” generator the fine is now $39,000
per day! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Now
I am far from a polluting kind of individual and
all for air quality but this is getting the best
of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only
good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go
20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load.
I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new
client they look at me like I am crazy. So the
air cooled units are basically throwaways and
the 22KW units are way more than we need and
what a client needs to spend money on, unless
you are at 10,000 ft el.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">If
you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter
+/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or
elevation factors would require an 8200-8300
watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH
& 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator
were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and
ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">So,
why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22
KW water generators?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">There
is a business opportunity here folks.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">What
are you all installing?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Why?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Is
it reliable?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Would
you use it on your house?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks
for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060">----------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Dana
Orzel</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Great
Solar Works, Inc - <b>NABCEP # 051112-136</b></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">E</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com"
target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a> - <b>Web</b>
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://solarwork.com" target="_blank">solarwork.com</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">O</span></b><span
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Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:970.626.5253" target="_blank">970.626.5253</a>
<b>C </b>- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:208.721.7003" target="_blank">208.721.7003</a>
- No FAX Line</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><u><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since
1988" </span></u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy">
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Please
consider the environment before printing this
email.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________<br>
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