[RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters
Jason Szumlanski
jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com
Wed Feb 11 10:33:54 PST 2015
In the heat of SWFL we rarely see clipping with 255W modules on M215's and
almost never with 270W modules. I attached a graph of my 10.2kWdc system
that should be cranking here in April (on week of April 2014 shown). This
is 40 modules at 255W on M215's. I don't see any significant clipping to
speak of. In fact, the peak watts shows 8,875W on one day, which is
222W/microinverter (less than the 225 actual limit). I understand that some
may have over-performed and some under-performed at times, but the clipping
would have to be very minimal and for a short period.
I agree that is is all a cost/benefit analysis. I'm still explaining
oversizing to inspectors an plan reviewers - consumers are so far behind
that learning curve at this point.
>From a marketing standpoint, oversizing makes a lot of sense since pricing
is done on a $/Wdc basis, and comparisons are made versus competition on
that same basis. If I'm offering a 270W/M250 system and my competitor
offers a 270W/M215 system, I am at a disadvantage since we are both
offering 270W of rated power for price comparison purposes. We probably
won't shift to the M250 until 60 cell 290W+ modules become widely available
and cheap or some other competitive pressure pushes us in that direction.
That's when I think it will be a real cost-benefit win for the consumer
(here at least). Sub-optimal tilt/orientation is another obvious reason to
oversize.
My next challenge will be explaining to inspectors the 280W module on the
M215 since the spec sheet lists recommended power up to 270W only. I
haven't figured that out (or asked) why that figure is listed by Enphase
when white papers by the manufacturer suggest higher watt modules may
result in higher energy harvest, and are definitely supported and
encouraged.
(Nick - care to weigh in on that?)
[image: Inline image 1]
Jason Szumlanski
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:09 AM, <Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com>
wrote:
> Hi:
>
> It's all about cost versus benefit. The following goes through it in more
> detail.
>
> http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf
>
> With large commercial systems, the best return on money invested is with
> 30% to 70% oversizing.
>
> JARMO
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* |
> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer*
> * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:*
> +604-505-0291
> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com*
> <jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com> | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com*
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> V5G4M1
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>
> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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>
> From: Dave Click <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu> To:
> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 02/10/2015 07:12 PM Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches" <
> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Regarding the clipping, which the power electronics guys would rather I
> call "power limiting"...
>
> To be clear, "Longer 100% production around noon" (implied in that image
> that this is somehow beneficial) means "this system could have produced
> more energy but didn't because the inverter was too small." Assuming
> similar efficiencies, a 300W micro-inverter clearly would have produced
> more energy on that day than the 250W inverter. I imagine that what you
> mean was that if you're locked into a certain ac limit here (either you can
> only use a 250W micro, or maybe your service conductors limit your ac
> rating) then yes, a higher dc/ac ratio may have more power limiting but
> will produce more energy at the expense of your kWh / kWdc yield (a
> consideration for some projects).
>
> Given that the ABB inverters have their highest efficiencies at the higher
> end of their power outputs, which is not where PV modules typically operate
> (unless you stick a 400W module on it), I'm curious whether a typical 280W
> module would actually produce more energy over a year with an Enphase 240W
> vs the ABB 300W in most locations. Over the full Enphase power range it's
> more efficient than the ABB:
>
> At ~100W dc input, Enphase is at about 96.4% efficient and the ABB 300W is
> at 95.8%.
> At ~250W input: Enphase 96.4%, ABB 96.1%.
> And yes, at 315W input: Enphase 76.2% steady-state, ABB 96.4%.
>
> It could go without saying (but I have momentum) that you should not spend
> $2000 on a larger inverter(s) that will help your array produce $200 more
> energy over its 25-year life. It's up to you to figure that out given your
> site conditions and as noted in the last thread that addressed this topic,
> weather data probably underestimates the benefit due to its averaging out
> most short-term edge-of-cloud effects.
>
> Anyway, maybe C250s would meet the OP's needs and they're actually the
> slightest bit more efficient than the standard 240W unit. That is, until
> you add the transformer since the output is 220-248V L-N. That presumably
> makes the ABB the efficiency winner, but hopefully the above is still
> useful. Sorry, no personal experience with any of the ABB/APS/C250 units. I
> probably should have opened with that to save you some time.
>
> DKC
>
> On 2015/2/10 13:05, *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com*
> <Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com> wrote:
> Hi:
>
> One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that if
> a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual energy
> harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely even
> improve it.
>
> Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W
> module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter.
>
>
> Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate
> for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful
> than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month.
>
> Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters
> to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return on
> investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing,
>
> JARMO
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* |
> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer*
> * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:*
> +604-505-0291
> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com*
> <jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com> | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com*
> <http://www.xantrex.com/> | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC
> V5G4M1
>
>
>
> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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>
> From: Drake *<drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>*
> <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> To: RE-wrenches
> *<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>* <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>,
> Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro
> inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches"
> *<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>*
> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of
> thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a
> ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W /
> inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the
> spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A
> ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt
> likely wouldn't have that issue.
>
> This system went in the spring of 2010, and has
> only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough.
>
> At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote:
> >What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you
> >are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we
> >rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I
> >use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power
> >production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I
> >guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the
> >site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc.
> >
> >Daryl
> >
> >
> > > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going
> on.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: RE-wrenches [*mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org*
> <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] On
> > > Behalf Of *penobscotsolar at midmaine.com* <penobscotsolar at midmaine.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM
> > > To: RE-wrenches
> > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters
> > >
> > > Hey Jason,
> > > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules.
> > >
> > > Daryl
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi Jason,
> > >>
> > >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial
> > >> applications does work with 72 cell modules.
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> > >> *jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com*
> <jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two
> > >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system
> > >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I
> > >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because
> > >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and
> > >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is
> > >>> better.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png]
> > >>>
> > >>> Jason Szumlanski
> > >>>
> > >>> Principal Solar Designer
> > >>>
> > >>> Florida Solar Design Group
> > >>>
> > >>> (239) 491-8010 office
> > >>>
> > >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile
> > >>>
> > >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar
> > >>>
> > >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png]
> > >>>
> > >>> License CVC56701
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy
> *<bill at berkssolar.com>* <bill at berkssolar.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi folks--
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules
> > >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found
> > >>>> are ABB micro
> > >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A.
> > >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks for your time.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill Hennessy
> > >>>> Berks Solar, LLC
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> > >>>>
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