<div dir="ltr">In the heat of SWFL we rarely see clipping with 255W modules on M215's and almost never with 270W modules. I attached a graph of my 10.2kWdc system that should be cranking here in April (on week of April 2014 shown). This is 40 modules at 255W on M215's. I don't see any significant clipping to speak of. In fact, the peak watts shows 8,875W on one day, which is 222W/microinverter (less than the 225 actual limit). I understand that some may have over-performed and some under-performed at times, but the clipping would have to be very minimal and for a short period. <div><br></div><div>I agree that is is all a cost/benefit analysis. I'm still explaining oversizing to inspectors an plan reviewers - consumers are so far behind that learning curve at this point.</div><div><br></div><div>From a marketing standpoint, oversizing makes a lot of sense since pricing is done on a $/Wdc basis, and comparisons are made versus competition on that same basis. If I'm offering a 270W/M250 system and my competitor offers a 270W/M215 system, I am at a disadvantage since we are both offering 270W of rated power for price comparison purposes. We probably won't shift to the M250 until 60 cell 290W+ modules become widely available and cheap or some other competitive pressure pushes us in that direction. That's when I think it will be a real cost-benefit win for the consumer (here at least). Sub-optimal tilt/orientation is another obvious reason to oversize.</div><div><br></div><div>My next challenge will be explaining to inspectors the 280W module on the M215 since the spec sheet lists recommended power up to 270W only. I haven't figured that out (or asked) why that figure is listed by Enphase when white papers by the manufacturer suggest higher watt modules may result in higher energy harvest, and are definitely supported and encouraged.</div><div><br></div><div>(Nick - care to weigh in on that?)</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_14b79e4246396140" alt="Inline image 1" style="margin-right: 25px;"><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><span><br><div dir="ltr" style="margin-left:0pt"></div>Jason Szumlanski</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:09 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target="_blank">Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="sans-serif">Hi:</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">It's all about cost versus benefit.
The following goes through it in more detail.</font>
<br>
<br><a href="http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="sans-serif">http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf</font></a>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">With large commercial systems, the best
return on money invested is with 30% to 70% oversizing.</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif">JARMO<br>
</font><font size="3" color="#008000">_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size="3">
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Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000" face="Arial"><b>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Dave Click <<a href="mailto:daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu" target="_blank">daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu</a>></font>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>, </font>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">02/10/2015 07:12 PM</font>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro
inverters</font>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>></font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Regarding the clipping, which the power electronics guys
would rather I call "power limiting"...<br>
<br>
To be clear, "Longer 100% production around noon" (implied in
that image that this is somehow beneficial) means "this system could
have produced more energy but didn't because the inverter was too small."
Assuming similar efficiencies, a 300W micro-inverter clearly would have
produced more energy on that day than the 250W inverter. I imagine that
what you mean was that if you're locked into a certain ac limit here (either
you can only use a 250W micro, or maybe your service conductors limit your
ac rating) then yes, a higher dc/ac ratio may have more power limiting
but will produce more energy at the expense of your kWh / kWdc yield (a
consideration for some projects).<br>
<br>
Given that the ABB inverters have their highest efficiencies at the higher
end of their power outputs, which is not where PV modules typically operate
(unless you stick a 400W module on it), I'm curious whether a typical 280W
module would actually produce more energy over a year with an Enphase 240W
vs the ABB 300W in most locations. Over the full Enphase power range it's
more efficient than the ABB:<br>
<br>
At ~100W dc input, Enphase is at about 96.4% efficient and the ABB 300W
is at 95.8%. <br>
At ~250W input: Enphase 96.4%, ABB 96.1%. <br>
And yes, at 315W input: Enphase 76.2% steady-state, ABB 96.4%.<br>
<br>
It could go without saying (but I have momentum) that you should not spend
$2000 on a larger inverter(s) that will help your array produce $200 more
energy over its 25-year life. It's up to you to figure that out given your
site conditions and as noted in the last thread that addressed this topic,
weather data probably underestimates the benefit due to its averaging out
most short-term edge-of-cloud effects.<br>
<br>
Anyway, maybe C250s would meet the OP's needs and they're actually the
slightest bit more efficient than the standard 240W unit. That is, until
you add the transformer since the output is 220-248V L-N. That presumably
makes the ABB the efficiency winner, but hopefully the above is still useful.
Sorry, no personal experience with any of the ABB/APS/C250 units. I probably
should have opened with that to save you some time.<br>
<br>
DKC<br>
</font>
<br><font size="3">On 2015/2/10 13:05, </font><a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target="_blank"><font size="3" color="blue"><u>Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="3">
wrote:</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif">Hi:</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font face="sans-serif"><br>
One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that
if a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual
energy harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely
even improve it.</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font face="sans-serif"><br>
Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W module
with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter.</font><font size="3">
<br>
<br>
</font><img src="cid:_1_0C6B407C0C6944380058C03C88257DE9" width="825" height="509"><font face="sans-serif">
<br>
Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate
for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful
than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month.</font><font size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="sans-serif"><br>
Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters
to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return
on investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing,</font><font size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="sans-serif"><br>
JARMO </font><font size="3" color="#008000"><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size="3">
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
<br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000" face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> <a href="tel:%2B604-422-2528" value="+6044222528" target="_blank">+604-422-2528</a> | <b>Tech Support:</b> <a href="tel:800-670-0707" value="+18006700707" target="_blank">800-670-0707</a>
| <b>Mobile:</b> <a href="tel:%2B604-505-0291" value="+6045050291" target="_blank">+604-505-0291</a> <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href="http://www.xantrex.com/" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>
www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 </font>
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<td width="13%"><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td width="86%"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Drake </font><a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org></u></font></a><font size="3">
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches </font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></u></font></a><font size="1" face="sans-serif">,
</font>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">02/10/2015 06:51 AM</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro
inverters</font><font size="3"> </font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" </font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></u></font></a></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br><font size="3"><br>
</font>
<hr noshade><font size="3"><br>
<br>
</font><tt><font><br>
That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of <br>
thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a <br>
ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / <br>
inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the <br>
spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A <br>
ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt <br>
likely wouldn't have that issue.<br>
<br>
This system went in the spring of 2010, and has <br>
only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough.<br>
<br>
At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote:<br>
>What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when
you<br>
>are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we<br>
>rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output.
I<br>
>use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall
power<br>
>production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping,
but I<br>
>guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on
the<br>
>site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc.<br>
><br>
>Daryl<br>
><br>
><br>
> > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping
going on.<br>
> ><br>
> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > From: RE-wrenches [</font></tt><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>]
On<br>
> > Behalf Of </font></tt><a href="mailto:penobscotsolar@midmaine.com" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>penobscotsolar@midmaine.com</u></font></tt></a><tt><font><br>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM<br>
> > To: RE-wrenches<br>
> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters<br>
> ><br>
> > Hey Jason,<br>
> > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell)
modules.<br>
> ><br>
> > Daryl<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >> Hi Jason,<br>
> >><br>
> >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial<br>
> >> applications does work with 72 cell modules.<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski <<br>
> >> </font></tt><a href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>>
wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install.
We have two<br>
> >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring
system<br>
> >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult
to set up. I<br>
> >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell
option because<br>
> >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally,
and<br>
> >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that
bigger is<br>
> >>> better.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png]<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Jason Szumlanski<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Principal Solar Designer<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Florida Solar Design Group<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="tel:%28239%29%20491-8010" value="+12394918010" target="_blank">(239) 491-8010</a> office<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="tel:%28239%29%20410-4985" value="+12394104985" target="_blank">(239) 410-4985</a> mobile<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png]<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> License CVC56701<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy </font></tt><a href="mailto:bill@berkssolar.com" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u><bill@berkssolar.com></u></font></tt></a><tt><font><br>
> >>> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> Hi folks--<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W
72 cell modules<br>
> >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices
we've found<br>
> >>>> are ABB micro<br>
> >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A.<br>
> >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another
suggestion?<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Thanks for your time.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Bill Hennessy<br>
> >>>> Berks Solar, LLC<br>
> >>>> 371 Centennial Rd<br>
> >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> o <a href="tel:610%20682%204300" value="+16106824300" target="_blank">610 682 4300</a><br>
> >>>> c <a href="tel:484%20560%204666" value="+14845604666" target="_blank">484 560 4666</a><br>
> >>>> NABCEP certified installer<br>
> >>>> PA contractor #44411<br>
> >>>> </font></tt><a href="http://www.berkssolar.com" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>www.berkssolar.com</u></font></tt></a><tt><font><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or
architectural<br>
> >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent
sales<br>
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> >>><br>
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> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >><br>
> >> Cordially,<br>
> >><br>
> >> Nick Soleil<br>
> >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer<br>
> >><br>
> >> office <a href="tel:707-763-4784" value="+17077634784" target="_blank">707-763-4784</a> <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267
cell 07-321-2937<br>
> >><br>
> >> <</font></tt><a href="http://enphase.com/" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>http://enphase.com/</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>><br>
> >><br>
> >> *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase
Energy Management<br>
> >> System<br>
> >> <</font></tt><a href="http://ow.ly/HbVS3" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>http://ow.ly/HbVS3</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>>
<</font></tt><a href="http://community.enphaseenergy.com/" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>http://community.enphaseenergy.com/</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>><br>
> >> <</font></tt><a href="http://facebook.com/EnphaseEnergy" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>http://facebook.com/EnphaseEnergy</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>><br>
> >> <</font></tt><a href="http://twitter.com/Enphase" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>http://twitter.com/Enphase</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>><br>
> >> <</font></tt><a href="http://linkedin.com/company/enphase-energy" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u>http://linkedin.com/company/enphase-energy</u></font></tt></a><tt><font>><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300<br>
> >><br>
> >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315<br>
> >><br>
> >> Texas Master Electrician #284451<br>
> >><br>
> >> </font></tt><a href="mailto:nsoleil@enphaseenergy.com" target="_blank"><tt><font color="blue"><u><nsoleil@enphaseenergy.com></u></font></tt></a><tt><font><br>
> >><br>
> >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy!
It’s<br>
> >> just that I<br>
> >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s
an<br>
> >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles
from us. It<br>
> >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes.
And<br>
> >> it’s wireless!†<br>
> >><br>
> >> - William McDonough<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
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