[RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[boB at midnitesolar.com]

Jarmo, you are absolutely correct.   This is another great reason NOT to 
use an MPPT charge controller
as an AC sourced battery charger.   Also, if my instructions are not 
followed to a TEE, the CC WILL blow up !

The input capacitors are going to wear out MUCH sooner than a real 
charger because of the 60Hz or 120
Hz ripple shown in Jarmo's graph.  Capacitor ripple abuse was one answer 
to one of Larry's questions about long term
reliability.


Also, if the input diodes short, you are applying AC directly to the 
input capacitors and
will go POOF as well as the power section.

And you would NOT know that you needed an input power resistor first or 
possibly where
to even find one of the correct resistor values and power ratings if the 
input source is stiff.
This is the scariest problem in my mind....  Too high of input max power 
voltage, overcurrent
and then, battery voltage regulation will overshoot without that resistor.

I would just spend the extra money and do this right in the first place 
and don't try to
cut corners on price.

Brian Teitelbaum had the best idea I think...  Just buy an inverter with 
a power factor corrected
charger like the newer Schneider SW inverter/charger (I think that was 
the one ?) or one of
the MSW Magnums.  Or, a decent charger if one exists.  Haven't seen the 
Argus/Alpha one.

MPPT charge controllers are really just NOT designed for this. (although 
they might work for a while).

In fact, Ryan from MidNite Solar blew up several Classics at first.

But knowing that some folks are going to try this, I thought it best to 
give at least some directions.

Thanks,
boB


On 12/16/2014 12:34 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I'm enjoying learning many new ways of looking at things and of 
> practical solutions on this forum.  In that spirit, the only thing I 
> would add to this discussion is that the power factor as seen by the 
> AC source will be very poor.  In that regard, the larger the caps, the 
> more stable the "DC" voltage, but the poorer the PF.
>
> This will show up as much lower charging efficiency due to the way in 
> which AC current is drawn by the bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit. 
>  Here's an actual graph of how a bridge rectifier connected to a 
> capacitor draws AC current,
>
>
>
> The graph is from my past life a couple of decades ago back when I was 
> studying.  It's not a conventional phase-shift PF problem, but rather 
> a form factor PF problem.  It shows the current drawn by a 13" PC 
> monitor of that era, before PF correction was mandated for all new 
> products.  In this example the 'crest factor', (peak current as 
> measured versus what it could have been if the current was drawn 
> throughout the AC pulses, was about 4x).  Depending on the size of 
> capacitor, it can be as high as 7x.
>
> The practical effect on the wires and devices including the diodes and 
> charge controller, is that a lot of heat is generated in their power 
> components.  The source of the energy for that heat is the AC source 
> and in cases where the AC source is a generator that translates to 
> much higher fuel consumption, (in some cases over 30% more).
>
> Out of my tests back then, I also discovered one practical 
> recommendation.
>
> If you are using bridge rectifiers connected to capacitors, do not 
> have any length of wire and in particular no loop area in the wires 
> between the bridge rectifier and capacitors.  Having wire/loop area 
> introduces inductance into the circuit which behaves somewhat like an 
> ignition coil due to the high speed reverse recovery period of the 
> diodes; and this happens four times every AC cycle.  Given the right 
> conditions the voltage spikes caused by that inductance/ignition coil 
> like effect will make short work of the diodes and other components 
> which are on the circuit.
>
> The voltage spikes wont be a problem if the bridge rectifier is as 
> close as possible to the capacitors, but due to reverse recovery 
> effect, you'll still be stressing the parts and heating wires.
>
> In my opinion, its ok to do this, but I wouldn't push power levels to 
> anywhere near the limits of components and devices.
>
> JARMO
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> *
> Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **|  Solar Business*  | 
> *CANADA*  | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* *
> Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 *
> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ 
> <mailto:jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com> | 
> *Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ <http://www.sesolar.com/> | *Address:* 3700 
> Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1
> _
> _<http://%20www.sesolar.com/>
> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
>
>
> From: 	"boB at midnitesolar.com" <boB at midnitesolar.com>
> To: 	RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>,
> Date: 	12/16/2014 11:16 AM
> Subject: 	Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger
> Sent by: 	"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> Larry, Pitfalls ?
> The biggest pitfall I would say is if you have a VERY stiff grid.
>
> If your Voc is say, 170V DC and the CC current limits it output at 
> say, 169 V DC,
> they you are going to need to add an input power resistor of a couple 
> Ohms to
> help cushion the input to be more like a PV module.  A lot of times, 
> the grid is
> not nearly this bad, especially generators.
>
> Also, If you are going to do this, I would NOT use Solar mode but 
> instead try
> Hydro mode set to Manual MPP voltage.  First start the MPPV at 
> something just
> less than Voc or maybe, say, 160 VDC.  Then, from main STATUS screen, 
> you can
> adjust the input voltage up and down by pressing the Soft-Right or 
> Soft-Left
> keys respectfully.  (upper right and upper left keys).  Then you can 
> manually get
> a feel for what it should be set for.
>
> The Classic 200 is the only CC of ours that I would use.  The 250 
> would work but the
> 200 is much more suited.  I wish there were a real charger that one 
> could buy that was
> isolated, and we have never really advocated MPPT charge controllers 
> for this but
> in a pinch, they always seem to work find.  Never did add a "DT" mode 
> (after Daryl
> Thayer of course), but this hydro mode seems to work OK.
>
> If you want to let it sweep but setting it to 3 minutes (or higher) 
> that will also work.
> If you do that, set the minimum input voltage.  Something like 140V or 
> so will keep
> it from dropping the input voltage too low and either bogging down the 
> input source
> and the rectifier bridge (especially generators)
>
> You can also set the INPUT current limit in the LIMITS menu.  This was 
> for hydro
> in particular.  Either limit can help reduce Isc or bogging down issues.
>
> The other pitfall is that it is NOT galvanically isolated so you 
> should be very careful.
> We use an X240 equivalent transformer to keep the batteries going in 
> our burn in
> rack using 2 Classic 200s and it works great.
>
> Also, use a nice and strong full bridge rectifier so that it applies 
> 120 Hz instead of
> 60 Hz to the input.  That is much easier on the input capacitors and 
> things and just
> makes it work smoother.  There are input capacitors (filtering) on 
> most charge controllers.
>
> Again, in a pinch this seems to work but watch that input max power 
> point voltage to make
> sure it is not too high compared to the Voc.  If there isn't enough 
> voltage spacing between
> the two (stiff AC source) then the control isn't going to be very 
> smooth and might risk
> letting the smoke out.
>
> What ever you do here, be very careful what you touch !
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/16/2014 6:39 AM, Larry wrote:
> I must have missed the prior discussion about using PV CC. The concept 
> sounds good but how many of you have done this and are there any 
> pitfalls to be aware of? If I use a 20 amp bridge I should be able to 
> produce 80 amps @ 14.4V. For continuous operation, will I need a large 
> heat sink on it?
>
> How does the unfiltered full wave peak voltage affect the CC over 
> time? Are they (specifically Midnite) really designed to handle input 
> waveform like this? I like this idea, especially if I can stack the 
> controllers.
> Thank you,
>
> Larry
> On 12/15/14 6:51 PM, jay peltz wrote:
> Hi Kirk,
>
> If you use a 200vdc midnight CC you'll have no issues.
> When you rectify 120vac its up around 166vdc
> ( uses the peak vac which is around 170vac.)
>
> For a 150vdc max controller ( midnite 150)  or a 144vdc ( outback FM) 
> then a buck transformer or standard transformer is the trick to reduce 
> the AC and hence the DC for these lower voltage units.
>
> jay
> peltz power
> On Dec 15, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:
>
> This has been discussed on this list in years past. It is possible to 
> use an outback charge controller as a battery charger. You need to put 
> the 120 AC into a bridge rectifier, then feed the 120 DC into the 
> controller's PV input. So you'll have an 80 amp battery charger.
>
> *Kirk Herander*
> *VT Solar, LLC*
> */Proven PV provider since 1991/*
> *_www.vermontsolarnow.com_* <x-msg://519/www.vermontsolarnow.com>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> NABCEP^TM Inaugural Certificant
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
> 802.863.1202
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches 
> [_mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_] *On Behalf Of 
> *Dan Tittmann*
> Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2014 8:18 PM*
> To:* _info at windsine.org_ <mailto:info at windsine.org>; RE-wrenches*
> Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger
>
> You can manually adjust Iotas with tweaking the potentiomiters while 
> monitoring it with a god volt meter. But no time adjustment.
> Daniel
>
>
> Daniel Tittmann
> CTO
> Greenwired
> _www.greenwired.com_ <http://www.greenwired.com/>
> _daniel at greenwired.com_ <mailto:daniel at greenwired.com>
> 707-923-2001 (office)
> 707-206-5088 (Cell)
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Windsine Inc. <_windsine at gmail.com_ 
> <mailto:windsine at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Check out Argus Technologies.
>
> RoyR
> On Dec 15, 2014 4:01 PM, "Larry" <_larry at starlightsolar.com_ 
> <mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
> Wrenches,
>
> Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be 
> programmed for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I 
> have been needing this product for many years but I can only find it 
> in inverters with built in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.
>
> -- 
> Thank you,
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>

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