<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Jarmo, you are absolutely correct. This is another great reason
NOT to use an MPPT charge controller<br>
as an AC sourced battery charger. Also, if my instructions are
not followed to a TEE, the CC WILL blow up !<br>
<br>
The input capacitors are going to wear out MUCH sooner than a real
charger because of the 60Hz or 120<br>
Hz ripple shown in Jarmo's graph. Capacitor ripple abuse was one
answer to one of Larry's questions about long term<br>
reliability.<br>
<br>
<br>
Also, if the input diodes short, you are applying AC directly to
the input capacitors and<br>
will go POOF as well as the power section.<br>
<br>
And you would NOT know that you needed an input power resistor
first or possibly where<br>
to even find one of the correct resistor values and power ratings
if the input source is stiff.<br>
This is the scariest problem in my mind.... Too high of input max
power voltage, overcurrent<br>
and then, battery voltage regulation will overshoot without that
resistor.<br>
<br>
I would just spend the extra money and do this right in the first
place and don't try to<br>
cut corners on price.<br>
<br>
Brian Teitelbaum had the best idea I think... Just buy an
inverter with a power factor corrected<br>
charger like the newer Schneider SW inverter/charger (I think that
was the one ?) or one of<br>
the MSW Magnums. Or, a decent charger if one exists. Haven't
seen the Argus/Alpha one.<br>
<br>
MPPT charge controllers are really just NOT designed for this.
(although they might work for a while).<br>
<br>
In fact, Ryan from MidNite Solar blew up several Classics at
first.<br>
<br>
But knowing that some folks are going to try this, I thought it
best to give at least some directions.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/16/2014 12:34 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com">Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:OF6C22F45E.352E120D-ON88257DB0.006DD903-88257DB0.007112FF@US.Schneider-Electric.com"
type="cite"><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Hi:</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">I'm enjoying learning many new
ways
of looking at things and of practical solutions on this forum.
In
that spirit, the only thing I would add to this discussion is
that the
power factor as seen by the AC source will be very poor. In
that
regard, the larger the caps, the more stable the "DC" voltage,
but the poorer the PF.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">This will show up as much lower
charging
efficiency due to the way in which AC current is drawn by the
bridge rectifier/capacitor
circuit. Here's an actual graph of how a bridge rectifier
connected
to a capacitor draws AC current,</font>
<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:part1.08060405.09030709@midnitesolar.com">
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">The graph is from my past life a
couple
of decades ago back when I was studying. It's not a
conventional
phase-shift PF problem, but rather a form factor PF problem. It
shows
the current drawn by a 13" PC monitor of that era, before PF
correction
was mandated for all new products. In this example the 'crest
factor',
(peak current as measured versus what it could have been if the
current
was drawn throughout the AC pulses, was about 4x). Depending on
the
size of capacitor, it can be as high as 7x.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">The practical effect on the wires
and
devices including the diodes and charge controller, is that a
lot of heat
is generated in their power components. The source of the
energy
for that heat is the AC source and in cases where the AC source
is a generator
that translates to much higher fuel consumption, (in some cases
over 30%
more).</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">Out of my tests back then, I also
discovered
one practical recommendation. </font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">If you are using bridge
rectifiers connected
to capacitors, do not have any length of wire and in particular
no loop
area in the wires between the bridge rectifier and capacitors.
Having
wire/loop area introduces inductance into the circuit which
behaves somewhat
like an ignition coil due to the high speed reverse recovery
period of
the diodes; and this happens four times every AC cycle. Given
the
right conditions the voltage spikes caused by that
inductance/ignition
coil like effect will make short work of the diodes and other
components
which are on the circuit.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">The voltage spikes wont be a
problem
if the bridge rectifier is as close as possible to the
capacitors, but
due to reverse recovery effect, you'll still be stressing the
parts and
heating wires.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">In my opinion, its ok to do this,
but
I wouldn't push power levels to anywhere near the limits of
components
and devices.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font face="sans-serif" size="2">JARMO</font>
<br>
<br>
<font color="#008000" size="3">_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font
size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="Arial" size="1"><b><br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font color="#008000"
face="Arial" size="1"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font face="Arial" size="1"><b>
| Solar
Business</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Training &
Development Specialist - Senior</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Fax:</b> +604-420-1591 |
<b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font
color="blue" face="Arial" size="1"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font
face="Arial" size="1">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sesolar.com/" target="_blank"><font
color="blue" face="Arial" size="1"><u>
www.SEsolar.com</u></font></a><font face="Arial" size="1">
|
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 <br>
</font><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="1"><u><br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://%20www.sesolar.com/"><img
src="cid:part4.03040504.02070001@midnitesolar.com"></a><font
face="Arial" size="1"><br>
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail</font><font
size="3">
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif" size="1">From:</font>
</td>
<td><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com">"boB@midnitesolar.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com"><boB@midnitesolar.com></a></font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif" size="1">To:</font>
</td>
<td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">RE-wrenches
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>,
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif" size="1">Date:</font>
</td>
<td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">12/16/2014 11:16 AM</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif" size="1">Subject:</font>
</td>
<td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">Re: [RE-wrenches]
Programmable Battery
Charger</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif" size="1">Sent
by:</font>
</td>
<td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">"RE-wrenches"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></a></font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<hr noshade="noshade">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3"><br>
Larry, Pitfalls ?<br>
The biggest pitfall I would say is if you have a VERY stiff
grid.<br>
<br>
If your Voc is say, 170V DC and the CC current limits it output
at say,
169 V DC,<br>
they you are going to need to add an input power resistor of a
couple Ohms
to<br>
help cushion the input to be more like a PV module. A lot of
times,
the grid is<br>
not nearly this bad, especially generators.<br>
<br>
Also, If you are going to do this, I would NOT use Solar mode
but instead
try<br>
Hydro mode set to Manual MPP voltage. First start the MPPV at
something
just<br>
less than Voc or maybe, say, 160 VDC. Then, from main STATUS
screen,
you can<br>
adjust the input voltage up and down by pressing the Soft-Right
or Soft-Left<br>
keys respectfully. (upper right and upper left keys). Then
you can manually get<br>
a feel for what it should be set for.<br>
<br>
The Classic 200 is the only CC of ours that I would use. The
250
would work but the<br>
200 is much more suited. I wish there were a real charger that
one
could buy that was<br>
isolated, and we have never really advocated MPPT charge
controllers for
this but<br>
in a pinch, they always seem to work find. Never did add a "DT"
mode (after Daryl<br>
Thayer of course), but this hydro mode seems to work OK.<br>
<br>
If you want to let it sweep but setting it to 3 minutes (or
higher) that
will also work.<br>
If you do that, set the minimum input voltage. Something like
140V
or so will keep<br>
it from dropping the input voltage too low and either bogging
down the
input source<br>
and the rectifier bridge (especially generators)<br>
<br>
You can also set the INPUT current limit in the LIMITS menu.
This
was for hydro<br>
in particular. Either limit can help reduce Isc or bogging down
issues.<br>
<br>
The other pitfall is that it is NOT galvanically isolated so you
should
be very careful.<br>
We use an X240 equivalent transformer to keep the batteries
going in our
burn in<br>
rack using 2 Classic 200s and it works great.<br>
<br>
Also, use a nice and strong full bridge rectifier so that it
applies 120
Hz instead of<br>
60 Hz to the input. That is much easier on the input capacitors
and
things and just<br>
makes it work smoother. There are input capacitors (filtering)
on
most charge controllers.<br>
<br>
Again, in a pinch this seems to work but watch that input max
power point
voltage to make<br>
sure it is not too high compared to the Voc. If there isn't
enough
voltage spacing between<br>
the two (stiff AC source) then the control isn't going to be
very smooth
and might risk<br>
letting the smoke out.<br>
<br>
What ever you do here, be very careful what you touch !<br>
<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/16/2014 6:39 AM, Larry wrote:</font>
<br>
<font size="3">I must have missed the prior discussion about using
PV
CC. The concept sounds good but how many of you have done this
and are
there any pitfalls to be aware of? If I use a 20 amp bridge I
should be
able to produce 80 amps @ 14.4V. For continuous operation, will
I need
a large heat sink on it?<br>
<br>
How does the unfiltered full wave peak voltage affect the CC
over time?
Are they (specifically Midnite) really designed to handle input
waveform
like this? I like this idea, especially if I can stack the
controllers.</font>
<br>
<tt><font size="3">Thank you,<br>
<br>
Larry </font></tt>
<br>
<font size="3">On 12/15/14 6:51 PM, jay peltz wrote:</font>
<br>
<font size="3">Hi Kirk, </font>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3">If you use a 200vdc midnight CC you'll have no
issues.</font>
<br>
<font size="3">When you rectify 120vac its up around 166vdc</font>
<br>
<font size="3">( uses the peak vac which is around 170vac.)</font>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3">For a 150vdc max controller ( midnite 150) or a
144vdc ( outback FM) then a buck transformer or standard
transformer is
the trick to reduce the AC and hence the DC for these lower
voltage units.</font>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3">jay</font>
<br>
<font size="3">peltz power</font>
<br>
<font size="3">On Dec 15, 2014, at 5:38 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:</font>
<br>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4">This has been
discussed on
this list in years past. It is possible to use an outback charge
controller
as a battery charger. You need to put the 120 AC into a bridge
rectifier,
then feed the 120 DC into the controller’s PV input. So you’ll
have an
80 amp battery charger.</font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4"><b>Kirk Herander</b></font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4"><b>VT Solar, LLC</b></font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4"><b><i>Proven PV
provider
since 1991</i></b></font>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="x-msg://519/www.vermontsolarnow.com"><font color="blue"
face="Calibri" size="4"><b><u>www.vermontsolarnow.com</u></b></font></a>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4">dba Vermont Solar
Engineering</font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4">NABCEP<sup>TM </sup>Inaugural
Certificant</font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4">VT RE Incentive
Program Partner</font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4">802.863.1202</font>
<br>
<font color="#004080" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br>
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches [</font><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font
color="blue" face="Tahoma" size="2"><u>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Tittmann<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, December 15, 2014 8:18 PM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info@windsine.org"><font color="blue" face="Tahoma"
size="2"><u>info@windsine.org</u></font></a><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">;
RE-wrenches<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">You can manually adjust
Iotas with
tweaking the potentiomiters while monitoring it with a god volt
meter.
But no time adjustment.</font>
<br>
<font size="3">Daniel</font>
<br>
<font size="3"> </font>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3">Daniel Tittmann </font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">CTO</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Greenwired</font>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.greenwired.com/"
target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><u>www.greenwired.com</u></font></a>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:daniel@greenwired.com"
target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><u>daniel@greenwired.com</u></font></a>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">707-923-2001 (office)</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">707-206-5088 (Cell)</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<br>
<font size="3">On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Windsine Inc. <</font><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:windsine@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><font color="blue" size="3"><u>windsine@gmail.com</u></font></a><font
size="3">>
wrote:</font>
<p><font size="3">Check out Argus Technologies.</font>
</p>
<p><font size="3">RoyR</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">On Dec 15, 2014 4:01 PM,
"Larry"
<</font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" target="_blank"><font
color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><u>larry@starlightsolar.com</u></font></a><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3">>
wrote:</font>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Wrenches,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be
programmed
for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I have
been needing
this product for many years but I can only find it in
inverters with built
in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
Larry Crutcher<br>
Starlight Solar Power Systems</font>
</p>
<p>
<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>