[RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

Wed Apr 30 13:16:53 PDT 2014

Thanks Phil;

That's the best resource yet.  Actual choices in length of the ferules, 
insulated or non insulated, and not afraid to talk about Class K 
stranded wire ratings, etc.
Maybe I'll get some sleep tonii-iight......

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/30/2014 1:29 PM, Phil Forest wrote:
> We use ferrules for fine stranded wire at terminals. 
> Www.ferrulesdirect has it all.
>
> Phil Forest
> South Mountain Company
>
> On Apr 30, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com 
> <mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:
>
>> NSI has sleeves rated for fine strand specifically made for this 
>> application.  They seem to be around $1 for the 2/0 version
>> Here's a supplier.
>> http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/fs030-flexible-sleeve-657-i-d.html
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 4/30/2014 12:25 PM, William Miller wrote:
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line 
>>> an email contact and part number I need to order for 4/0.
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com 
>>> <mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers 
>>>> are just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of 
>>>> fine stranded cable is increasing dramatically.
>>>> ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand 
>>>> ratings.  I have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does 
>>>> not mention this issue, I had to call tech support.
>>>> BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex 
>>>> cable directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I 
>>>> torqued down, and didn't like, which lead to all this:
>>>> Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
>>>> How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann 
>>>> breakers in Trace DC boxes?
>>>>
>>>> Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the 
>>>> flex cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, 
>>>> all you get is that "deer in the headlights" stare.
>>>> I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of 
>>>> solar, but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming 
>>>> to be a solar expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just 
>>>> walk in and get the parts I need for a Code compliant 
>>>> installation.  If you sell the inverter and the cable, you really 
>>>> should stock the connector.
>>>>
>>>> On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as 
>>>> confirmed by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper 
>>>> than pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring 
>>>> compartment.  Now I just have to find some TODAY.  Ugh...
>>>>
>>>> And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.
>>>> R.Ray Walters
>>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>> On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:
>>>>> There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
>>>>> conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
>>>>> equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
>>>>> Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
>>>>> installation (per 110.3(B)).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
>>>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi ray
>>>>>
>>>>> As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
>>>>> wire.
>>>>>   Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
>>>>> ends says its UL for fine stranded.
>>>>>
>>>>> I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
>>>>> (Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
>>>>> ferrules)
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> Peltz power
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters<ray at solarray.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of
>>>>> horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
>>>>> Cobra X flex cable.
>>>>>> While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech
>>>>> support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
>>>>> for flex or fine stranded cable.
>>>>>> Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.
>>>>> Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.
>>>>>>  From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on
>>>>>> pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the
>>>>> crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
>>>>> sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
>>>>> found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
>>>>> wire, right in the connection:
>>>>>> http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
>>>>>> n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
>>>>>> I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
>>>>>> http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03
>>>>>> 01.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
>>>>>> The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail
>>>>>> adapters are coming in at $40/ ea...... (ouch)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no
>>>>> adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles
>>>>> 690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?
>>>>>> And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
>>>>>> For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs:
>>>>>> http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html
>>>>>> I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman
>>>>> breakers with that stiff a wire.  I've cracked breaker cases
>>>>> before......that's why the X flex is industry standard for off grid DC.
>>>>>> Thanks for your help,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> R.Ray Walters
>>>>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>>>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>>>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>>>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
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