[RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

Wed Apr 30 07:16:54 PDT 2014

Yep they make them

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdistribution/us/en/product-portfolio/meter-load-center/Documents/SIE_BR_SOLAR.pdf

Jay


> On Apr 30, 2014, at 6:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski <jason at fafcosolar.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, #10 wire is pretty cheap, especially when purchased in bulk, as are readily available 100A Square D NEMA 3R load centers and breakers. There isn't a great cost savings in terms of material. Sometimes it's just easier to make a single home run. Every job is different. We do it both ways.
> 
> Sometimes there isn't enough space near the meter or existing distribution for both a combiner and fusible disconnect or there are obstructions that make it impractical. There are aesthetic concerns (usually overblown by the homeowner or HOA). 
> 
> What we really need is for Square D to start making main distribution equipment with dedicated supply side lugs with OCPD built in. One can dream...
> 
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:44 AM, jay peltz <jay at asis.com> wrote:
>> Hi Jason,
>> 
>> Always good to get a different view on how to do it. 
>> I've always found it easier and cheaper to pull the circuits off the roof to the AC combiner, so my overcurrent is in a different location
>> 
>> Jay
>> Peltz power
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski <jason at fafcosolar.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Each microinverter string needs dedicated overcurrent protection. If combining strings on the roof for a single run back to the interconnection point, you need each string to have it's own breaker/fuse. The other option is to run each string back to the interconnection point separately, but for a 10kW system you have to do a supply side connection anyway on as typical 200A service, so combining strings somewhere is necessary, and a single run from the roof makes sense in many cases.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jason Szumlanski 
>>> Fafco Solar
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 6:40 PM, jay peltz <jay at asis.com> wrote:
>>>> Follow up to Bill's point.
>>>> 
>>>> For Micros I've installed a disconnect on the roof, but never a breaker or fuse
>>>> Why install a breaker?
>>>> 
>>>> jay
>>>> 
>>>> peltz power
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only needs to be accessible.  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click <daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in the SolaDeck hidden under a module.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
>>>>>> (A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of the following applies:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> DKC
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>>>>>> 690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box, but I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the breakers themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also apply to a Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria—run for the border” sentiment is coming from.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> 690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> be readily accessible.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> 690.34 Access to Boxes. Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> wiring system.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Bill Brooks.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Interesting so does "require a tool" include taking a screw off the cover plate of the combiner box, too?
>>>>>>>>> What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for my next project; I'll actually enjoy even more being the sole AHJ on the project.  
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> R.Ray Walters
>>>>>>>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>>>>>>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
>>>>>>>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>>>>>>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2014 2:52 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Readily accessible is now defined in the 2014 NEC. Installing OCPD’s underneath a module is a major faux paux, and I can’t imagine any AHJ thinking otherwise. Having to remove a module in order to reset a breaker, what a drag.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> "Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspection without requiring those concerned to use a tool, to climb over, remove obstacle or other.”
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2014, at 10:29 AM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You call it a solar panel, I call it a glass j-box cover plate. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> William
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Miller Solar
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2014, at 9:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski <jason at fafcosolar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If that is the interpretation,
>>>>>>>>> I don't see how the breakers are "readily accessible" in a SolaDeck
>>>>>>>>> mounted anywhere, regardless of whether it is under a module. It
>>>>>>>>> requires removal of four screws (using a tool) to access the breakers
>>>>>>>>> inside the enclosure. It's all up to the AHJ. It has not been an issue
>>>>>>>>> locally here. I can see how other jurisdictions may not
>>>>>>>>> concur.
>>>>>>>>> 
> 
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