[RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

Chris Mason cometenergysystems at gmail.com
Mon Feb 10 03:23:00 PST 2014 

What apparent power readings are you getting?


On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:11 AM, <bruce at willpowerelect.com> wrote:

> We dialed the inverters back to 3.6 kw charge and got a full bulk and EQ
> with no breaker trip today. Finally got the SG back up to 1.275 - 1.285
> after 4 hours @ 61.5. It had me real nervous for a week, being able to get
> bulk voltage but still only 1.220 - 1.223 SG.
> Now looking at putting in a capacitor bank to correct some of the power
> factor issues of the inverter/chargers so I can get more useable kw out of
> the genset.
>
> Thanks for your suggestions!
>
> Bruce Fiero-RMI
>
>
>
> *Willpower Electric LLC*
>
>
>  -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
> From: <bruce at willpowerelect.com>
> Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 12:04 pm
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> Yes Chris. I've got about 42 on one leg and 35-37 on the other. The
> transformer keeps the legs balanced to within about 5 amps.
>
> Bruce
>
>  -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
> From: Chris Mason <cometenergysystems at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 11:13 am
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>
> So the breaker is not the generator output breaker?
> I would put a clamp amp meter on the breaker leads set on Max to record
> the maximum current when it trips.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:23 PM, <bruce at willpowerelect.com> wrote:
>
>> True that on the DC genset, Kevin, but more or less removes the bypass
>> option. Strongly considered breaker replacement as many are susceptible to
>> harmonics, but a real PIA on this generator and haven't gotten around to it
>> yet. Also going to run the gen shed ventilators off the line side of the
>> gen when I replace the breaker to avoid overheating when breaker trips!
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>  -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>> From: "Kevin Pegg" <kpegg at energyalternatives.ca>
>> Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 9:39 am
>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>> "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious
>> about harmonics possibly being the culprit "
>>
>> Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for
>> off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are the
>> chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the
>> charger circuit. Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would
>> not run at all or reliably with gen running in charge mode.
>>
>> It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having to tear out several
>> new outback systems & replace with another brand to keep customers happy.
>>
>> What we have done successfully for sites where the customer doesn't want
>> to replace the Outback is install a bank of external battery chargers, ie
>> the Iota DLS series and use those for gen charging purposes only.
>> Sub-optimal in a lot of respects but that's what happens when a client buys
>> hardware and says "make it all work". A DC genset would be way more
>> efficient.
>>
>> Another thought have you tried another breaker on the gen? Weak breakers
>> do happen, have seen that on brand new gensets.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
>> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> ]*On Behalf Of *bruce at willpowerelect.com
>> *Sent:* February 9, 2014 9:28 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>>
>> Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this
>> system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer
>> with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the
>> hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades
>> on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up!
>> but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather.
>> With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at
>> about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge
>> demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I
>> set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload.
>> Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious
>> about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not
>> tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>  -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>> From: "RE Ellison" <reellison at gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 am
>> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>>  Thanks Jay,
>> We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs
>> capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.
>>  Glad you have a manual!
>> It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!
>>  Later,
>> Bob Ellison
>>      *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
>> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>]
>> *On Behalf Of *jay peltz
>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>>  Hi guys,
>>   The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272,
>>   jay
>>  peltz power
>>  On Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote:
>>
>>
>>   Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me
>> there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the
>> chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.
>>  I have found that "on paper" and reality do not always mix well.
>>  Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator
>> at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem
>> to "like" the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery
>> can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage
>> charging we have with inverters, you're not getting anywhere near enough to
>> max them with that generator. Powering down all the chargers 30% or so (or
>> 1 inverter totally) would help stop the breaker trips but slow the charging
>> off the generator. Then you just need to pray for lots of sun.
>>  Is the solar alone enough to power the loads in the normal day to day
>> usage in a best case situation, or is this a case of the generator has to
>> run to keep up?
>>    Up here we have seen 1 sunny day in 3 weeks, we know about generator
>> usage.....
>>   I can't speak on the HUP's. I have never used them, but might they be
>> somewhat hard to charge?
>>    Just some thoughts, but it's 3 am and I hope it makes sense in the
>> morning when I reread it....
>>    Later,
>>  Bob
>>        *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
>> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org<re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> ] *On Behalf Of *bruce at willpowerelect.com
>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 09, 2014 1:29 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>>    Hi Larry,
>>     I have an FNDC in the system. Manufacturer wanted 2 hour EQ before
>> adding water to the new battery. We got that and had SG between 1.260 and
>> 1.275 on all 24 cells. Cells were very thirsty (shipped with electrolyte
>> almost to the plates) and took 8.5 gallons between all cells. We aren't
>> having much trouble getting voltage back up but SG is below 1.23 (within
>> .01 on cells tested). Strategy at this point is to give a daily bulk and
>> absorb and EQ every 3 or 4 days for extended times and monitor SG.
>> Discontinue hard charging when SG plateaus. I generally shoot for c/10
>> charge current, and nervous about barely c/20 and a 12kw genset only giving
>> me about 5.
>>     Bruce
>>
>>  -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
>> From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"
>> <larry at starlightsolar.com>
>> Date: Sat, February 08, 2014 11:50 am
>> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>> Hi Bruce,
>>    Please explain "feeding it properly". Charging any lead acid battery
>> slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the
>> recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time,
>> and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.
>>     At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard
>> time getting to 100%. You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery
>> capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the
>> battery. Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the
>> limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the
>> full output.
>>    Larry
>>   On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote:
>>    Hi All,
>>     3 VFX 3648
>>   2 FM 80
>>  6.5 kw solar
>>   12 kw generator
>>  PSX 240 on generator output and VFX stacking
>>   Mate 3
>>  HUP 1690 ah
>>     System design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX
>> totaling 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw)  Potential charge current from 2
>> arrays and FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+
>> amps?
>>   Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with
>> the generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker
>> trips. L1 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51
>> amps @ 240v) resistive without breaker trip.
>>   I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12
>> amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep
>> the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or
>> coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm
>> only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less
>> than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and
>> compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the
>> inverters when the generator is off.
>>   I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I
>> would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before
>> deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but
>> not so....
>>   Any suggestions?
>>    Thanks!
>>    Bruce Fiero-RMI
>>
>>
>>
>>   <sigimg0.jpeg>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Chris Mason
> President, Comet Systems Ltd
> www.cometenergysystems.com
> Cell: 264.235.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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