[RE-wrenches] Looking for some help in Coronado, CA
Jason Andrade
jason at westcoastsustainables.com
Thu Feb 20 10:17:59 PST 2014
Wrencehes,
I have a grid tie install to do in the San Diego area and am looking for
some assistance or some one that will rent me a panel hoist. Also does
anyone know of a good solar hot water company to do an install in that area.
Thanks
Jason
West Coast Sustainables
Jason Andrade
C-46# 974647
(530) 410-4745 Cell
(530) 241-7498 Office
(530) 348-5301 Fax
Jason at westcoastsustainables.com
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Today's Topics:
1. Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues (Chris Daum)
2. Re: Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues (Ray Walters)
3. Re: Trojan IND9-6V settings with Outback FX and Flexmax 60
(Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems)
4. Re: Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues (All Solar, Inc.)
5. Re: California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic
Installation Guidelines" (Jerry Shafer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 13:39:28 -0700
From: "Chris Daum" <chris at OasisMontana.com>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues
Message-ID: <EFF56A6F9B1C4AE6B84B4A9FDBA307E4 at OasisChris>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Wrenches:
We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and he's
burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltage....the 2nd time it got over
400V before it burnt up). Bergey's been dragging their feet as to why this
is happening; they're saying it's probably an "upslope site" where the RPM
just gets too high, among other things. Metering tests prove that the
stator is OK.
They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent overvoltage; do
any of you have any experience with this device? It's ~$1200, and of course
there is no mention of this on Bergey's web site or in their XL.1 manual.
I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on their old
24V controller. So I am looking for more information on anyone who's using
this 'clipper'.
Please feel free to contact me off list.
Thanks!
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:27:53 -0700
From: Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues
Message-ID: <530521D9.50001 at solarray.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
We've done some research on this, as we're doing an XL.1 project at 12 v
right now.
I don't have first hand experience with the Clipper yet, but I have over
a decade of XL.1 experience and many years with Midnite's electronics.
The Clipper is exactly what is needed. It also moves the rectifier down
to the ground, and offers a braking disconnect system to shut the
turbine down completely if needed.
The Classic by itself isn't really controlling the turbine speed, and
counting on the XL,1 mechanical governing design by itself is definitely
full hardy.
Unfortunately, Bergey's new staff is not really up to full speed yet on
what is needed to make their turbines work long term. At least they've
abandoned the old XL.1 controller. Hopefully the turbine itself hasn't
changed too much; I've seen them survive some very high speed winds and
direct lightning strikes.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 2/19/2014 1:39 PM, Chris Daum wrote:
> Hello Wrenches:
> We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and
> he's burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltage....the 2nd time it
> got over 400V before it burnt up). Bergey's been dragging their feet
> as to why this is happening; they're saying it's probably an "upslope
> site" where the RPM just gets too high, among other things. Metering
> tests prove that the stator is OK.
> They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent
> overvoltage; do any of you have any experience with this device? It's
> ~$1200, and of course there is no mention of this on Bergey's web site
> or in their XL.1 manual.
> I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on their
> old 24V controller. So I am looking for more information on anyone
> who's using this 'clipper'.
> Please feel free to contact me off list.
> Thanks!
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:28:44 -0700
From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"
<larry at starlightsolar.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan IND9-6V settings with Outback FX and
Flexmax 60
Message-ID: <942ACD86-D61E-47A8-AC9C-CD1B9C3CB6D3 at starlightsolar.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Chris,
Moving from VRLA to flooded, the customer should know it takes about 20%
more energy and longer charge time to get to 100% SoC.
Trojan states that charge current should not be more than 10-13% of C20
discharge rate. For the IND9, that's 46 to 60 amps maximum per string. VRLA
can handle MUCH more.
Since sun-hours per day is the same and you need more energy to get 100%,
more PV solar or more generator time may be required.
I have seen 3 different published specifications from Trojan Battery about
charging their cells. One publication lists 2.45 to 2.79 Vpc. 2.79 volts!!
Does anyone charge this high? I'm a fan of high voltage charging, but I
generally don't go over 2.53 Vpc for flooded. But, since the IND9 data sheet
lists 2.45 Vpc maximum, I'de stick with that.
Larry
3 attachments, Trojan charge specs.
On Feb 19, 2014, at 9:36 AM, Chris Mason <cometenergysystems at gmail.com>
wrote:
I just switched a customer from VRLA batteries to Trojan IND9. I changed all
the battery settings to the numbers recommended by Trojan but I would be
interested to hear any recommendations from experience. Please let me know
if you have experience with the charge and discharge settings for this
combination.
--
Chris Mason
President, Comet Solar
www.cometsolar.com
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 19:56:24 -0700
From: "All Solar, Inc." <allsolar at scswifi.net>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Excel 1 wind generator issues
Message-ID: <EC3FEEF2-93D9-44C9-98D8-8296A74B6349 at scswifi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ray,
Are you referring to Midnite's wind turbine control box, which is what comes
with the Bergey?
It does not include any diversion for slowing the turbine. I questioned why
they did not use the clipper, but did not really get an answer. We have
installed 2 of the Excel 1s in the last 6 months with no problems. I also
believe the clipper would take care of it, just have no experience with it
yet.
Jeremy Rodriguez,
President
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240
719-372-3808 office
719-372-3804 fax
www.asolarelectric.com
Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>
> We've done some research on this, as we're doing an XL.1 project at 12 v
right now.
> I don't have first hand experience with the Clipper yet, but I have over a
decade of XL.1 experience and many years with Midnite's electronics. The
Clipper is exactly what is needed. It also moves the rectifier down to the
ground, and offers a braking disconnect system to shut the turbine down
completely if needed.
> The Classic by itself isn't really controlling the turbine speed, and
counting on the XL,1 mechanical governing design by itself is definitely
full hardy.
> Unfortunately, Bergey's new staff is not really up to full speed yet on
what is needed to make their turbines work long term. At least they've
abandoned the old XL.1 controller. Hopefully the turbine itself hasn't
changed too much; I've seen them survive some very high speed winds and
direct lightning strikes.
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 2/19/2014 1:39 PM, Chris Daum wrote:
>> Hello Wrenches:
>>
>> We have a customer who's got one of the Excel One wind gennies, and he's
burnt up two Classic controllers (overvoltage....the 2nd time it got over
400V before it burnt up). Bergey's been dragging their feet as to why this
is happening; they're saying it's probably an "upslope site" where the RPM
just gets too high, among other things. Metering tests prove that the
stator is OK.
>>
>> They also said that Midnite Solar has a 'clipper' to prevent overvoltage;
do any of you have any experience with this device? It's ~$1200, and of
course there is no mention of this on Bergey's web site or in their XL.1
manual.
>>
>> I have several other XL.1s in the general area, but they are on their old
24V controller. So I am looking for more information on anyone who's using
this 'clipper'.
>>
>> Please feel free to contact me off list.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Chris Daum
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>> 406-777-4309
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
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>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
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>>
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 18:59:26 -0800
From: Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar
Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"
Message-ID:
<CAMUFgmV6D8+jGNLGs8QHeeLYdjfdtvjn-a6XU=v7qGpGc9p3AQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Wrenches
I have had two buildings involved in a fire after we were completed and
down the road neither fires had anything to do with our work at all. In one
fire there was a unit next door (common wall) that had an appliance over
heat that was left on while there was no one there and started the fire.
The fire department shut the service down as required, cut into the attic
and made there way through to where they worked on the fire, my metal
conduit had a glove print on it, the inverter was all wet and no one got
hurt. The second fire was the result of an AC contractor pinching a wire
under the home very close to our conduit again power shut off access
reached and fire put out, again no one hot hurt do to the solar being
there, here the insulation on the wire was gone but still inside the
conduit safe. We only use metal conduit from module to inverter and to
meter unless it is underground no fire there.
If we follow simple rules and protect the system where we put the modules
should not be an issue and I understand needing access but then why does
solar hot water not apply to the PV rules for location. If any of you saw
the natural gas fire in northern cal some years back the fire department
did not even get near the roof they put the water cannons on it and ripped
the roof right off the homes, blow through the windows, I know this is not
what always happens but we all need to step back including the fire
marshals and think this through because killing the solar industry is not
the answer.
Jerry
On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Dan Fink <danbob88 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bill H;
> I believe I'm the firefighter you are referring to, and I'm allowed here
> on the Wrenches list because I've been a professional RE installer since
> 1994--still my career-- and a firefighter in a rural area with a large
> percentage of PV and wind installs. A couple talking points:
>
> ~Thanks Bill Brooks for explaining here why the roofing class ABC rating
> system has nothing to do with firefighter rooftop access/egress.
>
> ~Unfortunately ventilating the other side of the roof doesn't always work,
> wind from the wrong direction, wrong internal compartment in the
structure,
> etc. Also we use chainsaws with carbide teeth, the axes are for flipping
> open the roof sections; And egress is a problem...do we hang roof ladders
> from PV modules to escape a roof collapse to the other side?
>
> ~A fire commander will *never* risk the lives of his responders to the
> unknown. Instead the answer will be indirect attack - protect exposures -
> let it burn. As a RE professional it is *your* job to provide safe
designs
> and installations, label everything simply, obviously and properly as to
> what is there and how to shut it off, and more importantly reach out to
> your local fire department with the details on the systems you have
> installed in their response area, so if they get a call there, they know
> exactly what they are dealing with in advance. The more they know, the
> higher the chance they can save the house.
>
> ~ There has been at least one high-profile and high-dollar "let it burn"
> case in the last year. Not good for the PV industry.
>
> Will see many of you in Denver next month. Somehow I feel like I better
> keep watching my back.....yikes.
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
>
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Bill Hennessy <bill at berkssolar.com>wrote:
>
>> Andrew--Thank-you for your work to dampen the fire hysteria that's
>> sweeping the roofs of residential solar. Between the ridiculous setbacks
>> (out here you'd never see a firefighter on a house roof swinging an axe,
>> but if so inclined, they could go on the other side of the peak).
>>
>> And now we need to install mythical products for de-energizing and
>> fire-protection racking. Unless the big leasing companies can beat back
the
>> anti-solar "safety" club, rooftop residential is toast. PV leaders and
>> consultants have caved. A short time ago, a firefighter (what was he
doing
>> on the wrench page anyways?) urged installers not to look at their bottom
>> line and take in the big picture.
>>
>> That is exactly what you are doing in opposing these rules that are set
>> up for problems that don't exist. The firefighting and code making
>> industries are big bucks.
>>
>> Let's see, wrenches and folks who write the code can't figure out what it
>> says. And in our county in PA, there are 90 different permitting agencies
>> that will be reading the same codes and ordering their interpretations
>> before we get a permit.
>>
>> The real big issue is sustainability and climate change and we need to
>> have a society that embraces a rush to PV and not smother it with the
love
>> of safety. Want to stop fires? Let's go after toaster ovens.
>>
>> Bill Hennessy
>> Berks Solar, LLC
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Solar Energy Solutions <solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2014 3:13 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar
>> Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"
>>
>> <https://us-mg0.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=5kojk045gpsqg#>
>> Today at 11:41 AM
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> Rooftop real estate available for solar is of unparalleled and monumental
>> importance. As we head into our 6th great extinction the solar industry
>> needs to fight tooth and nail to gain 100% access to every inch of
>> available roof space. The fire fighting industry needs to adapt to
>> solar, NOT vice versa.
>>
>> In Oregon, one person, myself, stopped the 12 person BCD committee from
>> adopting the anti solar 3 foot pathway around solar arrays. The
committee
>> would not listen to reason. I went to the governors office saying and
>> showing that if the Cal. Guidelines were adopted as code 100% of the
roofs
>> we had installed systems on would be 100%illegal and unviable.
>>
>> Yada yada yada, we got the Koyaanisqatsi Rule.
>>
>> *304.9.1 General Pathway Requirements *
>> *Exception **1.1. *Where the PV array does not exceed 25% as measured in
>> plan view of total roof area of the structure, a minimum 12 inch (305mm)
>> unobstructed pathway, shall be maintained along each side of any
horizontal
>> ridge.
>> *1.2*. Where the solar array area exceeds 25% as measured in plan view
>> of total roof area of the structure, a minimum of one 36 inch (914 mm)
>> unobstructed pathway from ridge to eave, over a structurally supported
>> area, must be provided in addition to a minimum 12 inch (305 mm)
>> unobstructed pathway along each side of any horizontal ridge.
>>
>> I still see this as a failure. I had 40% going into the final meeting
>> and one foot from the peak only on pitches greater than 4:12. But, by
that
>> time everyone hated me soooo badly for holding such a hard lined solar
>> centric perspective, and for succeeding in going over their heads, it was
>> all I could do to get them to meet.
>>
>> Unassisted in this battle I was exhausted and unable to follow the
>> proceedings to the end. And, in the end, a rafter span chart hostile to
>> solar was thrown in and now we are dealing with that.
>>
>> Here is the link to the Oregon Solar Installation Specialty Code:
>> http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/programs/solar/solar_code/100110_OSISC.pdf
>>
>> The concept and good intentions of a statewide code were good.
>> Unfortunately, the task was left to folk who were not as friendly towards
>> or knowledgeable of solar as one would think would be asked to be part of
>> such a noble cause.
>>
>> Respectfully Submitted,
>>
>>
>>
>> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*
>> *President*
>> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.*
>> *Since 1987,*
>> *Moving Portland and Beyond *
>> *to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.*
>>
>> *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>
**www.SolarEnergyOregon.com*<http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/>
>> *"Better one's House too little one day*
>> *than too big all the Year after."*
>>
>>
>>
>> * On Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:45 AM, Mark Frye
>> <markf at berkeleysolar.com <markf at berkeleysolar.com>> wrote: *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *There are so so many well informed people on this list, and I am so
>> lazy. I wish someone could just lay it all out":We got the 2012 ABC thing
>> nearly identical to NPPA1 with the set backs and labelingWe got the 2014
>> NEC with the de-energizing the conductors and equipment We got the IBC
>> which appears to say one thing about fire rating ie. needs to be the same
>> as roofAnd we got the UL thing that seems to be based on the combined
>> rating of the module and racking system Wow, I commend anyone who is
>> willing to go into a building department and lay down a set of
plans.MarkOn
>> 2/13/2014 10:50 AM, William Korthof wrote: > Bill,>> Thanks for the
>> attached info. I don't see where the fire rating class of solar modules
is
>> addressed though...>> In the IBC, the specific section (I believe 902.4
or
>> close to that) seems to call for solar modules to carry the same fire
>> rating class as the roofing class required of the building. At least
that's
>> the interpretation I initially got from my local building and safety
>> office. They've been sitting on my plans for two weeks so far. When they
>> turn them around, I may have more to talk about. >>> /wk>> William
Korthof>
>> 714.875.3576 <714.875.3576>> Sustainable Solutions> #956904>> On Feb 13,
>> 2014, at 9:34 AM, "Bill Brooks"
<**billbrooks7 at yahoo.com*<billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *> wrote: >> Yes Peter,>> It is called the 2012 International Fire Code.
>> The California guidelines> were turned into code in 2012. There is an
>> explanation document I wrote > available online at:>> *
>>
*http://solarabcs.org//about/publications/reports/fireguideline/index.html*<
http://solarabcs.org//about/publications/reports/fireguideline/index.html>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *>> For those states that are using NFPA 1 as their fire code, it is
>> nearly> identical.>> Bill.>>
>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home
>> Power magazine>> List Address:
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