[RE-wrenches] PV Assist

Marco Mangelsdorf marco at pvthawaii.com
Fri Aug 16 21:00:05 PDT 2013


With all due respect, Ozzie Zehner—cited in the piece that Todd notes below—is at least a bit whacked.  Read his entire diatribe of an error-filled book, which I have.  Geez…..talk about making condemnatory judgments…most of Zehner’s book is pretty much a judgment filled rant.

 

Since when do we as contractors become the Morality, Virtues and Ethics Police with our clients?  Sure, if one’s own code and judgment says no to a particular client or situation, then walk away.  But to cast aspersions on others who do seek to help them and make a sale in the process crosses the line.

 

marco

 

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 5:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

 

"If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for 

it, why is it our business to judge them?"

 

 

hi ray,

 

is it judging them? or simply saying: 

 

"i do this work because i believe in trying to make a more sustainable world... and i will not enable waste. i do not care what these people can afford... i care about what the earth can afford and we already have too many people consuming too much and teaching my clients to live energy and resource wisely benefits us all."

 

maybe it is like bob-o said... my hippie roots, but we DO need to realize we are all in this together and there is no room for greedy sociopaths. mega systems take mega resources. there is no free lunch:

this is a great article:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions

 

my .o2

 

todd

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Friday, August 16, 2013 5:26pm, "Ray Walters" <ray at solarray.com> said:

> I find its also about the money. If they're expecting a $20k system to
> perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on. I agree with Daryl that
> you keep a good record by picking your clients.
> On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy customers that don't want
> to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for it both in PV and
> fuel. They've been excellent long term customers, so I'm not about to
> be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.
> I currently have a very energy minded customer that wants an electric
> stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to use any fossil fuels
> on site. If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for
> it, why is it our business to judge them?
> 
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote:
> > Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
> > if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
> > thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer,
> > the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
> > take....just one man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many
> > systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that
> > there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
> > customer.
> >
> > Daryl
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi William,
> >> In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with
> >> load demand
> >> and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too
> >> much RE is a waste because it will
> >> result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
> >> controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
> >> (i.e. water heating).
> >> Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity,
> and
> >> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
> >> batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
> >> staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
> >> more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
> >> total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
> >> closely as possible.
> >> Hope that helps,
> >> Rgds,
> >>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED
> >> STATES | Technical Support Representative
> >> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# |
> >> Email: eric.bentsen at schneider-electric.com | Site:
> >> www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> >> Livermore, CA 94551
> >>
> >>
> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> Jay Peltz <jay at asis.com>
> >> To:
> >> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> >> Date:
> >> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM
> >> Subject:
> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> >> Sent by:
> >> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi William
> >>
> >> Thx helps a lot.
> >> I can only say how I do it.
> >> I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances
> and
> >> usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other.
> >>
> >> Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$.
> >>
> >> Good luck
> >>
> >> Jay
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller"
> <william at millersolar.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jay:
> >>
> >> There are four systems in question. In three the loads are year round
> and
> >> one is summer only AC loads. The year round loaded systems have loads
> day
> >> and night.
> >>
> >> One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
> >> One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water
> >> heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince
> >> them to change appliances.)
> >> One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
> >> One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and
> >> frugal AC units
> >>
> >> I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and
> they
> >> will hire someone to work on the systems. It may as well be me, doing
> the
> >> best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible.
> >>
> >> William
> >>
> >> PS: It always happens like this: I get a call from a client with
> >> problems. Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died
> >> because of wasteful appliances. The prescription is a new, expensive
> >> battery bank and, at the same time, new, expensive, efficient
> appliances.
> >> They complain can't afford both and they have to have the batteries, so
> >> that is what they get. Repeat every two years. Sad....
> >>
> >> Wm
> >>
> >>
> >> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [
> >> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
> >> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
> >> To: RE-wrenches
> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> >>
> >> Hi William
> >>
> >> I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics.
> >>
> >> For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so
> >> often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a
> >> extremely expensive battery 4 x day), vs year round vs what is do able
> >> etc
> >>
> >> I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure
> >> others as well
> >>
> >> Jay
> >>
> >> Peltz power.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller"
> <william at millersolar.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Friends:
> >>
> >> We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid
> systems
> >> where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.
> It
> >> is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads
> is
> >> beyond what is practical. We have dubbed these systems
> Generator/battery
> >> with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
> >>
> >> These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day. It is my
> >> understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.
> >> Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator
> run
> >> time in order to prolong battery life.
> >>
> >> The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high
> >> battery start parameter. This will prevent deep discharge of the
> battery
> >> bank. I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe
> >> shallow cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage
> >> window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
> >>
> >> We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing
> >> absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage
> >> start at least once per day allowing full absorption.
> >>
> >> Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you
> make
> >>
> >> I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual. I
> >> throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from them, even thought the advice is
> >> usually conflilcting. Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> William Miller
> >>
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