[RE-wrenches] FW: Re: Dual Radian install

William Miller william at millersolar.com
Wed Aug 7 13:14:16 PDT 2013


Phil:
 
I am a big fan of most things Outback.  I do think Outback missed the mark
with the GSLC cabinet.  
 
My complaints about the PS and then the Flexware cabinets are:
 
1. DC breakers had to be wired from behind
2. AC Breakers had to be fed individually with leads from a terminal block.
 
The GSLC has both problems but with a lot less room to work.
 
I will still be using the Radian inverter, but with all off grid inverters I
will most likely be distributing AC power via off the shelf AC load centers.
In Outback, Xantrex or Midnite BOS AC panels, if I want to install an AC
Breaker it takes 10 minutes (I like my lead runs to be very neat and this
takes time).  If I want to install a breaker in a standard OTS AC panel, it
takes 10 seconds to snap in a breaker.  I have a design idea for using
assignable busses in BOS panels.  Who wants to contact me first to talk
about exploring this idea???
 
In the GSLC, the same problem exists trying to wire DC breakers:  They wire
from the back and there is even less room to do this.  Fort the job I am
bidding, my design adds a Flexware 1000 DC cabinet and I will recombine the
four PV combiners within that enclosure.  The PV feeds can go in the top row
and the CC outputs on the bottom.  (I did not find a Midnite cabinet with
room to combine 200 amps of PV feed).
 
Bottom line:  The only breakers that I will consider putting in a GSLC are
the inverter breakers.
 
Phil, not to disrespect Outback -- the product lines have mostly been
excellent -- but the GSLC can not be used to distribute AC and PV as well an
inverter feeds.
 
Respectfully,
 
William Miller
 
 
 
 


17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422
www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/> 
805-438-5600 voice*
*Note: above number replaces cell number
 

  _____  

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Phil
Undercuffler
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 5:19 PM
To: Allan Sindelar; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Re: Dual Radian install


William,

The Radian was designed to be big enough so that one inverter could handle
most residential applications, but also easy to parallel so that very large
systems could be assembled by simply repeating the same building blocks,
similar to how installers build up 100kW PV systems using string inverters.
However, when you have systems of this size the potential available fault
currents become such that we wanted to move away from using ganged breakers
and metal sliding plates, especially when double-pole, double-throw safety
switches in a range of sizes, both automatic and manual, are commonly
available from many sources. 

With larger systems, the easiest way to meet 705.12 is to install a
dedicated "Inverter Combiner" AC load center fed by a supply side tap,
similar to what is typically done with larger grid-dependent PV systems.  It
just seems far more cost effective to use standard, off-the-shelf components
which are probably on your truck already, rather than custom sheet metal
sized for every possible inverter combination.  You could use a
service-rated 6-12 panel for up to three Radian inverters, or 8-16 for four,
etc.  Repeat an identical size panel on the output to gather the inverter
outputs, then send the combined feed to the house protected load center.  If
you have a generator as a second AC source, then pick up a third panel of
the same size.  

While we designed the prewired GSLC enclosures to provide a simple, quick
solution for single inverter systems, we also offer the bare GSLC for
multiple inverter systems as well as to allow full customization.  Each GSLC
has space for 18 AC or DC panel mount breakers.  In a dual inverter system
like the one you're planning, we've seen some cool installations where one
GSLC has been assigned to AC, and one to PV.  It works out pretty slick.
Each GSLC comes with its own shunt, so systems with up to three Radians can
easily use the multi-channel FLEXnet DC system monitor to give a full SOC
picture for all inputs and outputs.


Each Radian inverter should have its own GSLC, and pick up two 175A breakers
per inverter.  If the Inverter Combiner boxes are a distance from the
inverter stack or out of visual range, then you will need to install 50A AC
breakers for the appropriate inputs and outputs.  Me personally, I'd install
these breakers at the inverter in all systems, as it gives a positive
disconnect directly related to the inverter directly above - good peace of
mind for anyone who comes later.  There should be a finger's width of space
between every pair of inverters, to allow clearance for the door swing. 


Always update the firmware, as we're constantly expanding the capabilities
and features.  You don't need a computer or internet connection on the site
if you download the latest firmware for both the inverter and the MATE3,
unzip it and copy to an SD card before going out into the field.  Update the
MATE3 first. 

I hope this helps, and thanks everyone for the good feedback.



Philip Undercuffler
Director, Product Management and Strategy
OutBack Power Technologies
17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
360.618.4306 office  |  425.319.2821 mobile
www.outbackpower.com


 



On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Allan Sindelar
<allan at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:


Wrenches,
Robin at Midnite read my post to William and added the following off list:


Allan, thanks for adding us into the Wrenches discussion. We do have
E-Panels set up for single as well as dual Radians. I do not think OutBack
does? We have a Master/Slave set up where the Master has the AC bypass set
up for two inverters. OutBack makes you buy an additional outboard transfer
switch. We also have the large battery combiner made for connecting either
two Radians or four SMA Sunny Islands. OutBack does not have this. 

We also have a 2 piece back plate that holds all of this stuff. OutBack
doesn't.

The installers I have worked with prefer the MidNite E-Panel over the
OutBack since you can actually get to the breakers on the MidNite. It is a
bit less expensive also.

 Thanks, Robin

I would also suggest a couple of other things... with four Radians, you need
to be able to handle 1,400 amps of DC current (each Radian uses 2 2/0 cables
per pole and two 175A breakers). Robin has worked with us to develop an 850
A DC disconnect system (four SI5048 with 125A DC breakers and one Radian at
350 A), and may be able to assist with this greater need.


Also, you mention a 200A DC recombiner - I assume you are aware of the
60/80A limitation per controller, and that they can't be paralleled on the
input side.No reply needed.
Allan

-------- Original Message -------- 


Subject: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Radian install


Date: 

Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:14:47 -0600


From: 

Allan Sindelar  <mailto:allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
<allan at positiveenergysolar.com>


Reply-To: 

Allan at positiveenergysolar.com, RE-wrenches
<mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>


To: 

RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>

William,
We have done three or four single-inverter Radian systems, always with an
E-Panel, rather than the GSLC. We like the E-Panel, but can't compare them
directly. You might want to compare the two products in your designs.
Allan

Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:Allan at positiveenergysolar.com> Allan at positiveenergysolar.com


NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 

NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B Corporation
TM 

3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 <tel:505%20424-1112>  office 780-2738 cell
 <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/> www.positiveenergysolar.com





On 8/5/2013 1:50 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

I am bidding installation of two Radian inverters. Anyone out there done
this yet?  Got any advice?

Thanks in advance,

William Miller

 

17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422

 <http://www.millersolar.com/> www.millersolar.com

805-438-5600 voice*

*Note: above number replaces cell number


 


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