[RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties
Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Thu Apr 25 23:11:11 PDT 2013
The ones Carl linked to looked decent, Nylon 66. I definitely will slam
the Home Depot "Black UV resistant" ones.
You can tell just looking at them they're cheap, the plastic is dull and
brownish. I just returned a whole big bag of them, as we had 25%
failure during an install. I got some that are working much better from
Fastenal.
T&B are definitely decent.
Again I have not done scientific testing comparing different brands long
term. Its hard for me to know what zip ties we used 5 years ago, to
tell which ones are failing. Definitely the Homey Depot ones look and
act like they are about 5 yrs old right out of the bag though.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/25/2013 9:45 PM, frenergy wrote:
> Jason is the only one that's mentioned brands of zip ties. Holy Smokes
> all the conversation seems be discussing black plastic zip ties like
> they are all the same. I found some T & B black zip ties (Grainger, I
> think) that make the ones in Home Despot look like skinny tissue
> paper. If you look for "Heavy Duty", you can choose from tensile
> strengths, widths, thickness, UV resistance, temperature, made in USA
> (or not).... just a thought.
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ray Walters <mailto:ray at solarray.com>
> *To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:23 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties
>
> Terrible. I've got a file of pics like that, and the wires can
> grab hold of something while the tracker rotates, and rip a j box
> right off the back of the module.
> Around here, the white zip ties don't even last long enough just
> sitting in the truck to install without breaking.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 4/25/2013 11:19 AM, August Goers wrote:
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Your points all seem good. And I echo the other comments that
>> white non-UV zip ties should never be used. I bumped into a
>> tracker installation a few weeks ago out in the Fresno area with
>> very poor wire management! See attached pic - I have no idea who
>> installed the system or when. It looks like the wire management
>> was never any good in the first place although if you zoom in
>> you'll see traces of a few white zip ties here and there that
>> seem to be falling apart.
>>
>> We've managed to get our rooftop installations to be completely
>> managed with stainless s-clips and then maybe just a couple black
>> plastic zip ties in critical locations. So far so good. A lot of
>> it just goes back to good craftsmanship and running the PV wire
>> in strategic locations so it's mostly supported by channel or
>> rail. A tracking system is a completely different story where the
>> wires will be moving as the system tracks. Plastic zip ties
>> clearly don't seem like a good idea for tracking applications.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> August
>>
>> *From:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Ray Walters
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:30 AM
>> *To:* Solar Energy Solutions; RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties
>>
>> Black UV resistant ties only last a few years at altitude in New
>> Mexico and Colorado. UV is brutal, and causes PVC conduit to
>> discolor within 2 years. The zips will actually hold for 10+
>> years, but aren't really strong. I've come back on my own work,
>> and just yanked on them, and popped them right off.
>> They just get very brittle. If on a tracker that is constantly
>> pulling on them, they'll be trash on the ground after less than 5
>> years. I use wire loom clamps with rubber insulators in those
>> cases, and then the zip ties just hold the bundle of wires
>> together, but aren't actually securing the wire to the structure.
>> I looked into this recently for a large PV installation company
>> and I found that Nylon 6.6 is probably the best, but the
>> specified design life of the zip when exposed to UV was 6 to 10
>> years. We found a nylon zip rated to over 15 years, but it was
>> special order and cost something like $2/ ea (cough, cough)
>> I like the idea of SS ties, but they are not the same as the SS
>> clips as mentioned. The clips have curved edges that won't cut
>> into the cables. USE wire actually is pretty easy to cut into,
>> and I've seen a few shorts due to metal cutting into it. ( module
>> edges, romex type connectors, etc) I would wrap the wire with a
>> thick electrical tape before zip tieing with SS ties. There is a
>> heavy mil pipe wrap tape (UV and underground rated) that plumbers
>> use on gas lines.
>>
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 4/25/2013 9:48 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote:
>>
>> We have used black cable ties since 1987 to strap sensor wire
>> to PVC pipe for our solar pool heating systems. I was just
>> at a system we installed in 1989 mounted on an East facing
>> roof yesterday. The exposed 20g sensor wire still had intact
>> and plyable sheilding and the black cable ties still firmly
>> attached and not brittle. We have other similiar scenes with
>> systems mounted on South facing roof were the black cable
>> ties are still in tact under full solar exposure... for
>> Portland Oregon. Yanking on some of these cable ties
>> sometimes break the ancient tie. But, more often than not,
>> as yesterday, we have to break out our wire cutters to
>> accomplish this task.
>>
>> Thus, I gotta think that black cable ties under a PV array
>> which are not exposed to any of the heat or sun we
>> usually subject them to... are going to last an even longer
>> time.
>>
>> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*
>>
>> President
>>
>> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.*
>>
>> Since 1987,
>>
>> Moving Portland and Beyond
>>
>> to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
>>
>> *503-238-4502*
>>
>> *http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ *
>>
>> *"Better one's House too little one day*
>>
>> *than too big all the Year after."*
>>
>> *From:*Chris Mason <cometenergysystems at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:cometenergysystems at gmail.com>
>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 8:12 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties
>>
>>
>>
>> Make sure you use black cable ties, the white ones fail in UV
>> from sunlight.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:06 AM, August Goers
>> <august at luminalt.com <mailto:august at luminalt.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I too share the concern about standard plastic zip ties.
>> However, I started in the industry in 1997 and have yet to
>> see zip ties that are falling apart. Does anyone on the list
>> have firsthand experience with failed plastic zip ties?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> August
>>
>> August Goers
>>
>> Luminalt Energy Corporation
>>
>> 1320 Potrero Avenue
>>
>> San Francisco, CA 94110
>>
>> m: 415.559.1525
>>
>> o: 415.641.4000
>>
>> august at luminalt.com <mailto:august at luminalt.com>
>>
>> *From:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Solarguy
>>
>>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:08 AM
>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties
>>
>> We have used 8" flat SS ties for years and I have no concern
>> about the wear on the conductor insulation. They are long
>> enough to circle a standard Unirac rail and several wires
>> leaving 1" or so tag end. Needle nose pliers work to twist
>> the end and snug down the tie as tight as you're comfortable
>> with. The metal tie, once bent around the corners cannot
>> stretch any tighter, unlike nylon, regardless of how tightly
>> you twist the pliers. As for the edges, quality ties are not
>> sharp. Or cheap.
>>
>> Jim Duncan
>>
>> North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
>>
>> http://www.ntrei.com/
>>
>> NABCEP PV 031310-57
>>
>> TECL-27398
>>
>> ntrei at 1scom.net <mailto:ntrei at 1scom.net>
>>
>> 817.917.0527
>>
>> *From:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf
>> Of *Jason Szumlanski
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2013 8:08 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties
>>
>> There was a recent thread about wire management. Heyco
>> SunBundler ties have a vinyl coating. I recommended the clips
>> from PV Racking that are stainless steel coated in rubber.
>> I've had the same concern, and both of these seem like good
>> solutions to me.
>>
>> *Jason Szumlanski*//
>>
>> /Fafco Solar/
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Benn Kilburn - DayStar
>> Renewable Energy <benn at daystarsolar.ca
>> <mailto:benn at daystarsolar.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> I searched the archives, but came up with nothing on this....
>>
>> I have found a good supplier for reasonably priced stainless
>> steel cable ties and have been using them in place of black
>> nylon cable ties for supporting cables, PV wires and
>> micro-inverter wires to the mounting rails and such. I feel
>> better knowing the wires under the array are supported this
>> way rather than with plastic/nylon cable ties, for which I
>> tried but cannot get a manufacturer to guarantee will last
>> 20+yrs.
>>
>> A colleague is questioning this method (SS ties) with the
>> concern that over time the (albeit small) movement in the
>> wires and/or expansion/contraction of the rails could result
>> in the stainless steel cable ties cutting thru the wire's
>> insulation and then.....
>>
>> I have heard this concern before from others as well.
>>
>> The way I see it is that the very popular stainless steel "S"
>> cable clips that hold wires to module frames have comparable
>> equal sharp edges as well and would pose the same risk, but
>> there doesn't seem to be any concern there.
>>
>> I am wondering who else is using SS ties in place of nylon
>> ones, and if you are taking additional steps to protect the
>> wire's insulation from the SS ties?
>>
>> Common sense abides, meaning don't wrap a wire around the SS
>> ties so that the wire has tension on the sharp edge of the
>> tie. Flat edge contact with the wire only, the same way that
>> you wouldn't run a wire across/around a sharp cut edge of a
>> rail or anything else.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> benn
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Chris Mason
>>
>> President, Comet Systems Ltd
>>
>> http://www.cometenergysystems.com/
>>
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