[RE-wrenches] Solar Edge v. micro inverters
Greg Seelhorst
gseelhorst at gmail.com
Wed Jun 19 13:08:29 PDT 2013
Nick –
Thanks for your answers and clarification on the GFCI clearing remotely.
That is a nice feature, but probably not nice for gov’t installations who do
not like integrators/installers/manufacturers ‘logging-in’ to their sites
and doing anything remotely.
So, Re: Enphase Limited Warranty reads verbatim:
· The Limited Warranty covers a replacement unit to replace the
Defective Product, but does not include labor costs related to (1)
un-installing the Defective Product or (2) if applicable, re-installing a
repaired or replacement product. To the extent applicable, the Limited
Warranty also covers the costs of shipping a repaired or replacement product
from Enphase, via a non-expedited freight carrier selected by Enphase, to
locations where we have approved our microinverters for installation as
listed on our website at : http://www.enphase.com/warranty
Questions/clarifications:
1. Re: Shipping costs – Does Enphase pay for the return shipping of
the defective product, in other words does Enphase use the replace-return
system where the same box is returned and is pre-labeled/pre-paid?
2. Re: Installer labor Compensation – I think the above warranty is
clearly ‘limited’, in other words, non-existent, vis-à-vis the installer.
Other manufacturers such as SMA, Power-One, Fronius, and SolarEdge offer
‘installer-friendly’ travel/labor compensation to at least cover their time
to deal with the warranty. Here it is clear that Enphase is ‘passing the
buck’ to installers to cover travel/labor/handling costs for the Enphase
defective product.
On that note, does Enphase have any expectations of ‘stepping-up’ their
travel/labor product replacement compensation package for installers?
I think that we have enough RE-Wrenches installers curious enough to see
your responses, so feel free to respond with your answers to the Wrenches
list.
Cheers,
Greg Seelhorst
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™
POSITIVE ENERGY, Inc.
510 S. Main Street
Las Cruces, New Mexico 88001
Cell: 575-650-1883
Office: 575-524-2030
FAX: 575-915-1788
<mailto:gs at PositiveEnergySolar.com> gs at PositiveEnergySolar.com
www.positiveenergysolar.com
From: Nick Soleil [mailto:nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 1:11 PM
To: gseelhorst at gmail.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge v. micro inverters
HI Greg,
Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and feedback. A lot of what you are
saying is accurate, but there are a number of clarifications that I'd like
to make regarding our product offering. I'll begin by answering your direct
questions.
1. Arc-fault failures were ‘repairable’ remotely via the online
monitoring, but only 3 times. Any update on this?
- I believe that your question about arc-fault protection is actually
regarding GFI protection. As per NEC 690.11 arc fault protection is not
required for systems less than 80volts, so this does not apply to Enphase
microinverters. GFCI faults can be cleared from the system page in
Enlighten.
2. When is Enphase coming out with a new higher wattage
micro-inverter?
- Stay tuned on this one. Keep in mind that the output power of a
microinverter is in AC, whereas the output power of an optimizer is DC,
which occurs before the conversion to AC. That means that the optimizer
must be sized larger than a microinverter. For example, a 250 watt
optimizer on a 96% efficient inverter will need to be 10 watts larger than a
comparable microinverter. Comparing the wattage of an optimizer to a
microinverter is not apples to apples.
3. What is Enphase’s compensation for warranty calls, travel and labor
these days?
- Our official warranty and up time guarantee policy can be viewed at;
http://enphase.com/warranty/.
Also, please note that the old EMU is now called Envoy, and we stopped
charging for the monitoring service in June of 2011. Our monitoring system
provides module level data, but to clarify, it also reports system level
data, too.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Greg Seelhorst <gseelhorst at gmail.com>
wrote:
Marco –
As we are a SunPower dealer, there is really no question on which product to
use for the 96-cell module (which we have a preference for over the
72-cell), as Enphase does not yet have a 300w or 350w micro-inverter yet.
To qualify our comments, have installed 14 SolarEdge systems and 10 Enphase
systems to date.
>From our experience in New Mexico, we have branches from Taos to Las Cruces,
but the optimizer v. micro-inverter choice is more important when the heat
factor comes into play, as in Albuquerque and Las Cruces. The most
important advantage that I have seen is the ‘wider operating capacity’ of
Optimizers and reliability of the optimizer/micro-inverter factors. As all
Wrenches on this list know, even if there is warranty labor compensation, a
warranty call has its opportunity costs, as well. I have outlined below my
likes and dislikes of SolarEdge v. Enphase and most of them appear in the
video on the link you provided, as well.
SOLAREDGE
Likes –
Power Production - Better Power production in early mornings and late
afternoons, give about 2.5-4% better AC production (at the REC meter!) than
Enphase due to wider operating capacity of SolarEdge Optimizer
Free monitoring, can upload photos of customer site on monitoring portal,
less AC wiring for gateways/dataloggers
DC powerline coms for monitoring use dedicated line from optimizers to
inverter, therefore, no potential for ‘noise’ to disrupt the communication
No extra ‘trunk cables’ to buy
Lower cost/watt
Safe when in Open Circuit Voltage, where each Optimizer produces 1 volt
until it is in
Can use with SunPower 96-cell modules
Can now use star washers from optimizer to rail connection to eliminate need
for #6 Bare Cu in exposed conditions
$125/per warranty call, to cover travel and labor
25yr Optimizer warranty
System cost decrease for increased system size
Arc-Fault compliant
Dislikes –
SolarEdge stresses that a 25yr warranty can
be ‘extended’, but is not standard – The 12yr warranty is a challenge
talking point when customer is more concerned with this, than the viability
of the company who is installing them
Failure rates of new products released ‘too early’ and are quite high – we
experienced close to 40% failure rate of Gen1 inverter due to faulty I/O
switch and motherboards which caused the inverter to ‘stay asleep’ when it
appeared that there was harmonic ‘noise’ inside the inverter
Additional inverter equipment required to ‘interconnect’ and find a place
for in a garage that has a lot of clutter
NEC Req’d Label calculations are a bit
fuzzy, for the Imp and Isc conditions, may have initial questions from the
AHJ.
7000w inverter output is only rated to
produce 6000w at 240 Vac, although allowable DC inputs are higher for the
7000 (8250
400w Optimizer is still a ‘new product’ and
is having higher failure rates than 250w and 300w optimizers
Powerline adapter not included and will be
an extra purchase
ENPHASE
Likes
Arc-fault compliant
Blog is great and answers a lot of technical questions without requiring to
call tech support, Array of the week installs
MAGE solar is offering a 30yr warranty on
the module/Enphase AC module product
interesting
Safe when not connected (UL 1741 req’d)
Dislikes
Energy Clipping on modules above 250w range
in early years of production
EMU is extra and is not provided with Enphase purchase
Lots of electrolytic capacitor electronics on the roof, in the heat, for a
number of years
High Failure rates of m190 product
Max power limited to 215w micro-inverter at present, compared to SolarEdge’s
400w Optimizer for a single module
Inverter AC output sizing is dependent on the micro-inverter size, whereas
SolarEdge has one single inverter, this will come more in to play as Enphase
increases micro-inverter sizing and will need to size Module to
micro-inverter appropriately in larger systems
Greater Voltage drop in longer homeruns, requires wire size increase
Online reporting is dicey, at times on some
installations depending upon local harmonic distortions
Online monitoring only gives production ‘at
the micro-inverter’ level.
Note: This last comment is inherent in the product, so as a rule, always
refer to Utility Revenue Meter at interconnection instead of online
production values to be objective
Questions to Wrenches or Enphase/SolarEdge reps on this list:
SolarEdge (John B. and Marv D.)
1. NEC req’d labels for inverter – Can we assume 350 Vmp and 500 Voc
to calculate Imp and Max Isc values?
Enphase (Nick S.)
1. Arc-fault failures were ‘repairable’ remotely via the online
monitoring, but only 3 times. Any update on this?
2. When is Enphase coming out with a new higher wattage
micro-inverter?
3. What is Enphase’s compensation for warranty calls, travel and labor
these days?
Either
1. Which is better, one-on-one, in similar shaded situations
2. Are there any reports of either products reducing effects caused by
a higher Voltage Induced Degradation (I don’t know if this term exists [as
opposed to PID]) for higher 600 or 1000v systems of modules operating at
higher voltages per string
Congratulations to both Enphase and SolarEdge on their product development.
These products give us hope for higher performance and I expect to see an
extended life of solar panels, due to these module level production units
and will help hold module manufacturers accountable. Congratulations to
SolarEdge on their ‘Gangnam Style’ video, as well!
Regards,
Greg Seelhorst
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Las Cruces, NM
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SwingJunkie
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 5:25 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge v. micro inverters
Marco,
We installed our first Enphase system in December 2009, and our last in
December 2011, when their high failure rate became a problem. (Currently
10%+ for us). We were only installing the Enphase units on sites with
shading issues, as a means to mitigate conditions.
After moving away from Enphase, we selected SolarEdge as the solution
of choice for those sites. The installation labor is comparable to the
Enphase solution, separate device under each module. One clear advantage is
that there are no custom trunk cables required, just the standard USE-2
cable and connectors.
Our field experience has been better than expected production, and 1.4%
failure rate. In December we installed a SolarEdge system just down the
street from a site where we had previously installed an SMA string inverter
on an unshaded site. The SolarEdge system has some shading. Both arrays
have roughly the same orientation and pitch. To date the SolarEdge system
with shading continues to out produce the unshaded SMA system by 5-8%
kWh/kWp.
I agree with your intuition on fewer components making a better solution and
"IF" there is a reliable solution that accomplishes this that would be
preferred.
I just priced out the Mage AC module (SolarBridge technology) side by
side with the Mage - SolarEdge combination and the later is less expensive
equipment wise but I think that advantage would be erased by labor savings
on the install.
All that said I'm still a fan of the old fashioned string inverter
solution unless the site shading conditions and or array geometry require an
alternate solution.
Cheers
Carl Adams
SunRock Solar
On Jun 14, 2013, at 9:15 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" <marco at pvthawaii.com>
wrote:
I’ve been educating myself on the Solar Edge product v. using micro
inverters. If you click on the link below, you can read the pitch that they
make for using their product over micros.
Any opinions out there on how convincing their strategy is? As well as any
experience in the field with the product?
Intuitively, it seems to me that if you can accomplish what you need to
accomplish (DC power from the PV mod to usable AC power) with fewer parts
(as in a micro inverter instead of a DC-DC converter and a separate
inverter), then that approach makes more sense.
http://www.solaredge.us/groups/us/technology/microinverters
thanks,
marco
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Cordially,
Nick Soleil
Field Applications Engineer
Enphase Energy
Mobile: (707) 321-2937
<http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campa
ign=Comm2012> Enphase Commercial Solar. Limitless.
<http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campa
ign=Comm2012>
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Petaluma, CA 94954
www.enphase.com <http://www.enphaseenergy.com/>
P: (707) 763-4784 x7267
F: (707) 763-0784
E: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com
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