[RE-wrenches] Solar Edge v. micro inverters
Nick Soleil
nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com
Tue Jun 18 12:10:57 PDT 2013
HI Greg,
Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and feedback. A lot of what you are
saying is accurate, but there are a number of clarifications that I'd like
to make regarding our product offering. I'll begin by answering your
direct questions.
1. Arc-fault failures were ‘repairable’ remotely via the online
monitoring, but only 3 times. Any update on this?
- I believe that your question about arc-fault protection is actually
regarding GFI protection. As per NEC 690.11 arc fault protection is not
required for systems less than 80volts, so this does not apply to Enphase
microinverters. GFCI faults can be cleared from the system page in
Enlighten.
2. When is Enphase coming out with a new higher wattage
micro-inverter?
- Stay tuned on this one. Keep in mind that the output power of a
microinverter is in AC, whereas the output power of an optimizer is DC,
which occurs before the conversion to AC. That means that the optimizer
must be sized larger than a microinverter. For example, a 250 watt
optimizer on a 96% efficient inverter will need to be 10 watts larger than
a comparable microinverter. Comparing the wattage of an optimizer to a
microinverter is not apples to apples.
3. What is Enphase’s compensation for warranty calls, travel and
labor these days?
- Our official warranty and up time guarantee policy can be viewed at;
http://enphase.com/warranty/.
Also, please note that the old EMU is now called Envoy, and we stopped
charging for the monitoring service in June of 2011. Our monitoring system
provides module level data, but to clarify, it also reports system level
data, too.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Greg Seelhorst <gseelhorst at gmail.com>wrote:
> Marco –****
>
> ** **
>
> As we are a SunPower dealer, there is really no question on which product
> to use for the 96-cell module (which we have a preference for over the
> 72-cell), as Enphase does not yet have a 300w or 350w micro-inverter yet.
> To qualify our comments, have installed 14 SolarEdge systems and 10 Enphase
> systems to date.****
>
> ** **
>
> From our experience in New Mexico, we have branches from Taos to Las
> Cruces, but the optimizer v. micro-inverter choice is more important when
> the heat factor comes into play, as in Albuquerque and Las Cruces. The
> most important advantage that I have seen is the ‘wider operating capacity’
> of Optimizers and reliability of the optimizer/micro-inverter factors. As
> all Wrenches on this list know, even if there is warranty labor
> compensation, a warranty call has its opportunity costs, as well. I have
> outlined below my likes and dislikes of SolarEdge v. Enphase and most of
> them appear in the video on the link you provided, as well.****
>
> ** **
>
> SOLAREDGE ****
>
> Likes – ****
>
> Power Production - Better Power production in early mornings and late
> afternoons, give about 2.5-4% better AC production (at the REC meter!) than
> Enphase due to wider operating capacity of SolarEdge Optimizer****
>
> Free monitoring, can upload photos of customer site on monitoring portal,
> less AC wiring for gateways/dataloggers****
>
> DC powerline coms for monitoring use dedicated line from optimizers to
> inverter, therefore, no potential for ‘noise’ to disrupt the communication
> ****
>
> No extra ‘trunk cables’ to buy****
>
> Lower cost/watt****
>
> Safe when in Open Circuit Voltage, where each Optimizer produces 1 volt
> until it is in ****
>
> Can use with SunPower 96-cell modules****
>
> Can now use star washers from optimizer to rail connection to eliminate
> need for #6 Bare Cu in exposed conditions****
>
> $125/per warranty call, to cover travel and labor****
>
> 25yr Optimizer warranty****
>
> System cost decrease for increased system size****
>
> Arc-Fault compliant****
>
> Dislikes –****
>
> SolarEdge stresses that a 25yr warranty
> can be ‘extended’, but is not standard – The 12yr warranty is a challenge
> talking point when customer is more concerned with this, than the viability
> of the company who is installing them****
>
> Failure rates of new products released ‘too early’ and are quite high – we
> experienced close to 40% failure rate of Gen1 inverter due to faulty I/O
> switch and motherboards which caused the inverter to ‘stay asleep’ when it
> appeared that there was harmonic ‘noise’ inside the inverter****
>
> Additional inverter equipment required to ‘interconnect’ and find a place
> for in a garage that has a lot of clutter****
>
> NEC Req’d Label calculations are a bit
> fuzzy, for the Imp and Isc conditions, may have initial questions from the
> AHJ. ****
>
> 7000w inverter output is only rated to
> produce 6000w at 240 Vac, although allowable DC inputs are higher for the
> 7000 (8250****
>
> 400w Optimizer is still a ‘new product’
> and is having higher failure rates than 250w and 300w optimizers****
>
> Powerline adapter not included and will be
> an extra purchase****
>
> ** **
>
> ENPHASE****
>
> Likes ****
>
> Arc-fault compliant****
>
> Blog is great and answers a lot of technical questions without requiring
> to call tech support, Array of the week installs****
>
> MAGE solar is offering a 30yr warranty on
> the module/Enphase AC module product…interesting ****
>
> Safe when not connected (UL 1741 req’d)***
> *
>
> Dislikes ****
>
> Energy Clipping on modules above 250w
> range in early years of production****
>
> EMU is extra and is not provided with Enphase purchase ****
>
> Lots of electrolytic capacitor electronics on the roof, in the heat, for a
> number of years****
>
> High Failure rates of m190 product****
>
> Max power limited to 215w micro-inverter at present, compared to
> SolarEdge’s 400w Optimizer for a single module ****
>
> Inverter AC output sizing is dependent on the micro-inverter size, whereas
> SolarEdge has one single inverter, this will come more in to play as
> Enphase increases micro-inverter sizing and will need to size Module to
> micro-inverter appropriately in larger systems ****
>
> Greater Voltage drop in longer homeruns, requires wire size increase****
>
> Online reporting is *dicey*, at times on
> some installations depending upon local harmonic distortions****
>
> Online monitoring only gives production
> ‘at the micro-inverter’ level. ****
>
> Note: This last comment is inherent in the product, so as a rule, always
> refer to Utility Revenue Meter at interconnection instead of online
> production values to be objective****
>
> ** **
>
> Questions to Wrenches or Enphase/SolarEdge reps on this list:****
>
> ** **
>
> SolarEdge (John B. and Marv D.)****
>
> **1. **NEC req’d labels for inverter – Can we assume 350 Vmp and
> 500 Voc to calculate Imp and Max Isc values?****
>
> ** **
>
> Enphase (Nick S.)****
>
> **1. **Arc-fault failures were ‘repairable’ remotely via the online
> monitoring, but only 3 times. Any update on this?****
>
> **2. **When is Enphase coming out with a new higher wattage
> micro-inverter?****
>
> **3. **What is Enphase’s compensation for warranty calls, travel
> and labor these days?****
>
> ** **
>
> Either****
>
> **1. **Which is better, one-on-one, in similar shaded situations****
>
> **2. **Are there any reports of either products reducing effects
> caused by a higher Voltage Induced Degradation (I don’t know if this term
> exists [as opposed to PID]) for higher 600 or 1000v systems of modules
> operating at higher voltages per string****
>
> ** **
>
> Congratulations to both Enphase and SolarEdge on their product
> development. These products give us hope for higher performance and I
> expect to see an extended life of solar panels, due to these module level
> production units and will help hold module manufacturers accountable.
> Congratulations to SolarEdge on their ‘Gangnam Style’ video, as well!****
>
> ** **
>
> Regards,****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Greg Seelhorst****
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional****
>
> Las Cruces, NM****
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *SwingJunkie
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 5:25 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge v. micro inverters****
>
> ** **
>
> Marco,****
>
> We installed our first Enphase system in December 2009, and our last in
> December 2011, when their high failure rate became a problem. (Currently
> 10%+ for us). We were only installing the Enphase units on sites with
> shading issues, as a means to mitigate conditions. ****
>
> After moving away from Enphase, we selected SolarEdge as the solution
> of choice for those sites. The installation labor is comparable to the
> Enphase solution, separate device under each module. One clear advantage is
> that there are no custom trunk cables required, just the standard USE-2
> cable and connectors. ****
>
> Our field experience has been better than expected production, and 1.4%
> failure rate. In December we installed a SolarEdge system just down the
> street from a site where we had previously installed an SMA string inverter
> on an unshaded site. The SolarEdge system has some shading. Both arrays
> have roughly the same orientation and pitch. To date the SolarEdge system
> with shading continues to out produce the unshaded SMA system by 5-8%
> kWh/kWp. ****
>
> ** **
>
> I agree with your intuition on fewer components making a better solution
> and "IF" there is a reliable solution that accomplishes this that would be
> preferred. ****
>
> I just priced out the Mage AC module (SolarBridge technology) side by
> side with the Mage - SolarEdge combination and the later is less expensive
> equipment wise but I think that advantage would be erased by labor savings
> on the install. ****
>
> All that said I'm still a fan of the old fashioned string inverter
> solution unless the site shading conditions and or array geometry require
> an alternate solution. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Cheers****
>
> Carl Adams****
>
> SunRock Solar****
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2013, at 9:15 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" <marco at pvthawaii.com>
> wrote:****
>
> I’ve been educating myself on the Solar Edge product v. using micro
> inverters. If you click on the link below, you can read the pitch that
> they make for using their product over micros. ****
>
> ****
>
> Any opinions out there on how convincing their strategy is? As well as
> any experience in the field with the product?****
>
> ****
>
> Intuitively, it seems to me that if you can accomplish what you need to
> accomplish (DC power from the PV mod to usable AC power) with fewer parts
> (as in a micro inverter instead of a DC-DC converter and a separate
> inverter), then that approach makes more sense.****
>
> ****
>
> http://www.solaredge.us/groups/us/technology/microinverters****
>
> ****
>
> thanks,****
>
> marco****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
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--
Cordially,
*Nick Soleil*
*Field Applications Engineer
*
*Enphase Energy*
Mobile: (707) 321-2937
**
*Enphase Commercial Solar.*
*Limitless.*<http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campaign=Comm2012>
*
*<http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campaign=Comm2012>
1420 North McDowell
Petaluma, CA 94954
www.enphase.com <http://www.enphaseenergy.com/>
P: (707) 763-4784 x7267
F: (707) 763-0784
E: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com
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