[RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems)

Wed May 1 18:30:51 PDT 2013

I have had similar experience with Apollo.  I have found the config
software to be very buggy and difficult to use, and I believe having no way
to change parameters on site without a computer with a specialized
connector and program is a mistake.

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Kevin Pegg <kpegg at energyalternatives.ca>wrote:

> **
> I will similarly echo Allan's comments below re: Apollo. They sent me the
> same 3224 inverter and accessories to evaluate and try and gain my
> business. The unit stat in boxes for some time until last year when I
> decided to install and test out the system. My bad judgement to put this in
> a remote area, and to expect it to actually work.
>
> The inverter appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get some
> charge into the batteries. No matter what I tried I could not get the
> charge rate above 8A / 24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk
> to Apollo and they tell me I need an RS485 interface and software to
> program charge rate, that the default setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I
> recall him going on at length about why that's such a great idea and not
> interested in my feedback as a wrench why it in fact is a terrible idea. I'm
> in the middle of nowhere and I need that working now. I had RS485 interface
> gear with be but could not get it to work, issues with firmware, serial
> numbers, etc, etc and lost patience with doing this all over
> satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a few CFLs and a water
> pump as battery state was low. It didn't have any issues with CFL's.
>
> The DC Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory dead
> short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach anything, etc. Tore it all apart
> and re-wired. I purchased the official RS485 interface but have not
> played with it further since I can't see recommending anything as poorly
> designed as this.
>
> Ditto everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in another
> direction.
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar
> *Sent:* May 1, 2013 12:16 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems)
>
> In my opinion, based upon personal experience, Apollo is not a company of
> high integrity, and I would not encourage use of their products. I have
> kept my mouth shut for too long.
>
> About three years ago, following a conversation with CEO John Pfeifer at
> Solar 2009 in Anaheim, I was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect
> package to use in my own home, with the understanding that if I liked it
> I'd use my bully pulpit to spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep my
> communication private with them - standard stuff. Their inverter was
> advertised as being configurable as either 120/240 or straight 120. I
> requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had, and because many off grid
> homes were set up this way). I received a split-phase unit; when I pointed
> this out, I was sent instructions on how to do the internal wiring changes
> for straight 120. (First red flag: while advertised as either, this may
> have been the first one tried this way.) Upon boot-up, the inverter worked
> but could not charge from a generator. Eventually, working with tech
> support we determined that engineering had put the hall-effect sensing
> transducer on the neutral, rather than the hot. Once this was corrected, it
> still didn't charge correctly, and they sent a replacement unit. I used
> this for about a year, and then the inverter's fan failed in an "always on"
> mode; I learned that this isn't a field repairable failure, but needed the
> unit returned to the factory. They sent a replacement: wouldn't charge.
> They sent a second replacement: wouldn't charge either, but the symptoms
> were different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at Apollo, who had been aware
> of all of this, had moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He offered me
> a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a one-time try-it-out price; I removed the
> Apollo system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same generator, and all has
> worked well since then.
>
> On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis to the head of Apollo's tech support:
>
> Herb,
> As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo equipment. When the fan
> control circuit on my Apollo 3224 inverter (the second, and in use for a
> bit over a year) failed in an "always on at full speed" mode, you sent a
> refurbished replacement, as this failure is not field repairable. The
> replacement unit arrived a week and a half ago, and would not charge. The
> replacement for the replacement arrived on Thursday (2nd day air) and also
> would not charge - different technical issue, same net effect.
>
> There remain several fundamental issues with the Apollo inverter that
> prevent it from being marketable, in my opinion, along with numerous minor
> deficiencies.
> 1. In my application, with the unit installed indoors, when charging at
> full capacity from a generator, after about one to two hours the unit shuts
> down from overheating, even with the fan at full speed. The problem is that
> the entire inverter shuts down, rather than just the charger.
> 2. As we have discussed previously, the inverter is incapable of
> equalizing from my generator, as it leaves EQ mode long before it has
> completed a programmed cycle.
> 3. The unit appears to be overly sensitive to loads with poor power
> factor; when our Electrolux vacuum cleaner is turned on, either of two
> computers (one a Mac, the other Windows-based) crashes consistently.
>
> And numerous minor issues and annoyances:
> 4. Changing any setting requires connection to a computer, and more
> computer literacy than some customers would have, as the process is not
> user-friendly.
> 5. The fan's continuous periodic surge is annoying.
> 6. The units are not designed to allow field service, so many problems
> require replacement of the inverter.
>
> There are other issues, but this is sufficient as to define the product as
> clearly not up to the standards of current products on the market.
>
> Meanwhile, early on when the problems appeared to be getting resolved, I
> had recommended to a long-time customer needing a major upgrade (that
> required a shift from 1996-era SW4024 to a 48V system) that we use Apollo
> equipment. As these ongoing problems had not yet developed, he accepted my
> recommendation. His Apollo system used a 4048 inverter, with disconnect
> enclosure and two T80 charge controllers. This unit was set up as 120/240,
> so we weren't repeating the same issues I had had. I have forgotten many of
> the specifics, but after numerous callbacks (and a very sharp and involved
> homeowner) we ultimately pulled the entire system out at our expense and
> put in a Magnum MS4448PAE, E-Panel and two FM60s and all of the problems
> went away.
>
> I cautioned John Pfeifer that this was a purchased system for a customer,
> and I had not made the same confidentiality agreement with it. He asked me
> not to publicly air our experiences, and assured me they would make
> everything right.
>
> On 8/11/11 I wrote him:
>
> John,
> We have completed removal of the Apollo equipment. The [X] system is back
> up and in full operation. We selected a Magnum MS44448PAE inverter, mounted
> on a Midnite Solar E-Panel, with dual Outback FM60 charge controllers. This
> system package is is the closest available to what made up the Apollo
> package. I have attached before and after photos of the swapout, which was
> completed on Wednesday 8/3/11.
>
> I will be sending you billing by separate email. I will describe here how
> I have chosen to bill you, that represents the most fair and ethical
> judgments I can determine. First, I put together a package using
> competitors' equipment that most closely matched your package. For
> instance, I did not include the generator start option, as I had returned
> to you the one we didn't use that was part of your package. Also, I did not
> include any of the materials related to online monitoring, as you had not
> charged me for the communications gateway or the ASNET kit. During the
> swapout, I instructed [my technicians] to record separately that time not
> directly attributed to warranty work, as that will be billed directly to
> [X] (you will see this as a line credit on the invoice).
>
> All components were priced at our actual cost, with no markup, as we had
> already made our legitimate components profit when we sold the hardware to
> [X]. Likewise, the materials used to swap out the systems were estimated
> based on our costs, rather than on retail prices. We added actual shipping
> costs, and I have estimated the freight to return the Apollo items to you
> based on the actual charges for the original items sent by you to us. In a
> similar manner I discounted our travel mileage to represent our estimate of
> actual costs to us to operate our large service truck on a per-mile basis.
>
> On labor, however, I elected to bill for both the swapout labor and all of
> our warranty service and travel labor at our normal retail rates. This is
> because all of the work to attempt to solve the many problems with the
> Apollo equipment, to communicate about the problems with you and your staff
> and with [X], and ultimately to replace the equipment, represent hours that
> would have been available for other jobs, had this ongoing effort not
> interfered, and thus may be justly considered billable hours at retail
> rates. Indeed, labor makes up the majority of the bill. All of our
> dedicated labor is documented, and I will send hard copies of these records
> by mail. I have quite the record of emails back and forth with yourself,
> the Apollo engineers, and [X] as we attempted to solve problem after
> problem with this equipment. I did not charge for some of our personal
> conversations about this issue, or for the (extensive) time collating
> records and preparing this settlement invoice.
>
> The total invoice amount is $8,791.79. Please send payment in full to us,
> such that I may return the removed hardware to you and this entire matter
> may be put behind us.
> Thank you,
> Allan
>
> And John replied:
>
> Thank you for the photos.  Both systems look professional.  I hope that
> you are both satisfied with the way we worked out the solution.  This life
> is all about doing the right thing and it makes me happy to be able to do
> that whenever possible, no matter how it has to be done.  By the way, we
> have recently fixed the last bugs that you found for us.  That was not our
> plan, but we must move forward.****
> John Pfeifer
>
> We received a payment from Apollo of $2,200, then nothing more. Continuing
> to press the issue, on 2/8/12 I received the following from Apollo's CFO (a
> different John):
>
> Hi Alan,****
>
> I am sorry for the delay in responding – we are just a little short staff
> today w/ people out on vacation.****** **
>
> As far as sending payments – we will start paying $1,000/month starting
> this week.  Once we get close to the final payment – we will issue a call
> tag or arrange for a truck to pickup the items.****
>
> Thank you for your help and I hope your health continues to improve.****
> John
>
> We received one $1,000 payment a month later and nothing since then. We've
> written off the approximately $5,600 still owed us. We have a bunch of
> Apollo hardware here that we don't want and can't sell.. We finally
> recently used some of it for a trailer/portable system.
>
> David Katz's suggestion of an Apollo replacement for a TR served as the
> trigger for me to finally post our experiences here. Had Apollo kept its
> agreement, you'd not be reading this and Apollo would not have to deal with
> the effects of my posting my experiences, if any. While their failure to
> reimburse us for our troubles is the main reason for this post, I'll repeat
> that the equipment itself is not up to the standards of the industry in my
> experience, and I'd be cautious about using it in installations.
>
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> *Allan at positiveenergysolar.com* <Allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> *www.positiveenergysolar.com* <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>****
>
> *****************
> *
>
> On 5/1/2013 11:21 AM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Ray
> An Apollo inverter should fit on the same E-panel.  I have using one on my off grid house for may years.  They also have great remote monitoring over the internet.
> David Katz
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, "Ray Walters" <ray at solarray.com> <ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>
>
> I couldn't agree more Bob-O
> Pharmaceutical company? Ethics?  Opps.
> I thought Schneider buying them would help, but they have no idea what
> they're even selling these days.  Have you seen their website?  I can't
> even find a spec sheet for the TR in all that "Solutions for PV systems"
> mumbo jumbo.
> Amazing that the Trace equipment line that basically put PV on the map,
> is the bottom of the heap now.
> I like your 3C term.  I'll put that in our dictionary near PITA ( pain
> in the a__ ) factor.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760
>
> On 4/30/2013 5:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:
>
> The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded everyone's dough years ago.
> Bob-O
>
> On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
>
> Ray,
>
> I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem inverter.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.www.bluemountainsolar.com
> t: 541-568-4882
>
> On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
>
> Hi Folks:
>
> I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had another"installer" put in a Xantrex TR inverter.
> We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 different places!
> The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator.
> You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider Tech support said that:
> A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all incandescent........ hmmmm.
> B)  We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did)
> C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output voltage and frequency very well at lower loads........ 2nd big hmmmmm.
>
> I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years ago, but I couldn't recall the details.  Now its all coming back to my feeble, aging brain.  So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures for our ills?  How would LED lighting behave?  Should I throw a capacitor across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail......)
>
> As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) support group,
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>

-- 

Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20130501/2d105ba2/attachment-0003.html>