[RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
Andrew Truitt
atruitt at gmail.com
Thu Sep 16 07:44:42 PDT 2010
Brian - Thank you for your kind words! I will agree that the current
practice for installing ground lugs - be it anything from the minimalist
"thread-forming screw" method on up to the more cumbersome "John Wiles"
method - leaves something to be desired. I would love to see the industry
get together on a common, user-friendly, UL listed standard practice, but I
think I'm preaching to the choir on that one...
Regarding installer error, I will point out that the WEEB clip is also
susceptible to this scenario. I think the only fair comparison is between a
well-installed WEEB Clip and and a well-installed grounding lug, and in that
comparison I'll take the one that maintains its bond when the module is
unfastened from the racking structure.
Finally, thank your for developing the WEEB Lug! It is a wonderful piece of
hardware that bonds rails beautifully. If you could find a way to get the
cost down (does it need all that material?) I think something like that
could succeed as a universal module grounding method.
Keep up the good work!
Andrew Turitt
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Brian Wiley <btw at we-llc.com> wrote:
> Mr. Truitt,
>
> You are obviously a talented installer, but please allow me to comment on
> your point number 2.
>
> The clip acts something like a mini-rivet and will still be connected when
> the clamp is loosened. You will have to yank the clip off and possibly
> damage it, which is why they are recommended for one-time use.
>
> A tin-plated lug will last, but it is the attachment to an anodized
> aluminum frame that may not. Many are installed with a stainless steel
> thread forming screw. The original installer might have carelessly stripped
> the threads or screwed it in multiple times so that the connection was not
> that good to start with. We have also seen that in a high salt environment
> the formed thread is a place for corrosion to begin and over time, the screw
> hole can corrode until the lug falls off!
>
> I would recommend the safest practice is to assume that there will not be a
> ground when you remove any module.
>
> Best Regards,
> Brian Wiley
> Wiley Electronics LLC
> 845.247.6163
> www.we-llc.com
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2010 1:31 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2 points:
>>
>> 1) For the sake of clarity: there are WEEB LUGS <
>> http://www.we-llc.com/Datasheets/204-0404-000003.pdf> and WEEB CLIPS <
>> http://www.we-llc.com/Datasheets/204-0404-000007.pdf>. WEEB Lugs are
>> comprised of very robust tin-plated copper lugs, stainless steel hardware,
>> and the actual WEEB, which is the stainless steel nippled "washer" that
>> pierces aluminum anodization. WEEB Clips are simply stainless steal nippled
>> washers that are installed between module and rail that form a bond,
>> theoretically eliminating the need to bond the module to a ground wire, so
>> long as the rails are properly grounded.
>>
>>
>> 2) My biggest concern with the WEEB Clip is that the moment a top-clamp is
>> loosened the module is no longer grounded!!! To me that is not a good
>> grounding method. Mr Wiley is obviously a talented inventor and he makes a
>> strong argument for the quality of the bond that the WEEB Clip provides when
>> the clip is installed properly and all mounting hardware is properly
>> torqued. What I don't understand is the argument that this is as safe of a
>> product as a properly installed outdoor rated lug for the service tech who
>> has to work on that array.
>>
>>
>> A tin-plated copper lug with a stainless steel set screw will last. A
>> service tech working on a faulted array that was grounded with WEEB Clips
>> might not.
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Truitt
>> Free agent
>> Golden, CO.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 10:04 PM, benn kilburn <benn at daystarsolar.ca<mailto:
>> benn at daystarsolar.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Hopefully any crew installing PV, and familiar with this debate
>> (which they should be) can easily distinguish between the GBL-4
>> and the GBL-4DBT. The weight difference is quite noticeable. If
>> it feels light for its size, it's aluminum, dont use it!!! If it
>> has some distinct weight to it, then it's most likely the copper
>> DBT, giv'er!
>>
>> So what other non-conductive materials are out there that could
>> help resolve this frame bonding issue?
>> Sunteck's BIPV SolarBlend module uses a polycarbonate frame
>> which requires no bonding. Do any of you have any experiences
>> with these? How were they to handle, install? Do they offer any
>> hope or support for non-metallic module frames?
>>
>> benn
>> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
>> benn at daystarsolar.ca <mailto:benn at daystarsolar.ca>
>>
>> 780-906-7807
>> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: ray at solarray.com <mailto:ray at solarray.com>
>>
>> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 11:14:36 -0600
>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
>>
>> I didn't do the original install, and I couldn't ID the lug
>> because of the corrosion.
>> I believe everyone is correct that this isn't the DBT rated lug,
>> though.
>> Another reason to use the WEEB: a crew can't accidentally install
>> the wrong (but almost identical, when new) lug.
>> I'm sure the non-DBT lugs got mixed together in a bin at some point.
>>
>> R. Walters
>> ray at solarray.com <mailto:ray at solarray.com>
>>
>> Solar Engineer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Jamie Johnson wrote:
>>
>> That looks like a tin plated aluminum lug (aluminum
>> corrosion) with a plated steel screw (rusted screw).......
>> Here is an explanation of the differences between both ILSCO
>> GBL 4 lugs from John Wiles Code Corner in Homepower issue 102
>> "The Ilsco GBL-4DBT is a lay-in lug
>> made of solid copper, which is then tin-plated. It has a
>> stainless steel screw to hold the wire. The lug accepts a #14
>> (2 mm2) to #4 (21 mm2) copper conductor. It is listed for
>> direct burial (DB) and outdoor use and can be attached to
>> aluminum structures (the tin plate). The much cheaper Ilsco
>> GBL-4 lug looks identical, but is tin-plated aluminum, has
>> a plated screw, and is not listed for outdoor use."
>> Jamie Johnson
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #031310-118
>> General Manager
>> SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
>> EC13001765
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
>> From: "Peter Parrish" <peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
>> <mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>>
>> Date: Sun, September 12, 2010 6:50 pm
>> To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>
>> Are you sure that's a ILSCO GBL-4DBT lug? I am pretty sure
>> the set screw is
>> not SS, which it should be to be the genuine part.
>>
>> - Peter
>>
>>
>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
>> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
>> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
>> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
>> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
>> <mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com>
>>
>> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On
>> Behalf Of R Ray
>> Walters
>> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:10 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
>>
>> A picture is worth a thousand words, (hopefully this will
>> upload)
>> Here's a traditional Ilsco Lug after less than 5 years
>> near the ocean:
>>
>>
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>> --
>> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
>> to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
>> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
>> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
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--
"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
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ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
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